Are we the only country in Europe to have overcrowding issues on trains?

175mph · 2 Feb 2020

When I've read the newspaper website headlines in the past about many of our trains being overcrowded and people who have paid for first class seating barely being able to sit anywhere in standard class, let alone first class at times, it has surprised me as to how there haven't been snide comments stating how it would NEVER happen in any other European country.

Thing is though, are we really the only country in Europe to suffer these overcrowding issues on trains?

RailUK Forums

Mogster · 2 Feb 2020

No

https://www.dw.com/en/greta-thunbergs-trip-home-on-a-crowded-german-train/a-51677609

Greta Thunberg's trip home on a crowded German train

Click to expand...

On her way back to Sweden from a climate conference in Madrid, teenage activist Greta Thunberg encountered Germany's overcrowded trains. Twitter users commiserated with her.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20181210/pa...with-hay-to-criticise-overcrowding-on-line-13

Paris Metro train stuffed with hay to denounce

Click to expand...

overcrowding on Line 13

Commuters on Paris Metro’s notorious “ligne treize” are used to having to deal with little space, delays and the all too frequent insanitary splatter, but on Sunday the trip for some travellers was even more uncomfortable.

Photos have emerged on Twitter showing a carriage on Paris Metro’s Line 13 brimming with bales of hay and wicker baskets, making the train look more like a livestock farm than the imperfect means of transport it is on other days.

nlogax · 2 Feb 2020

175mph said:
Thing is though, are we really the only country in Europe to suffer these overcrowding issues on trains?

Big fat nope.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2015/11/overcrowded-trains-attract-record-number-of-complaints/

DutchNews.NL - Overcrowded trains attract record number of complaints

Spoorslag '70 · 2 Feb 2020

Definitely not.

Just some examples, in no specific order: S-Bahn München, fast München-Nürnberg REs (via the High Speed Line), RE1 in NRW (Aachen-Hamm), alex-services from Munich, many ICEs, regional trains around Hamburg, trains to/from Brussel, the Dutch railway network...

Basicly all bigger cities will have overcrowded trains into them in the peaks, but especially the longer RE trains (or in Belgium the coastal ICs) are usually extremely busy during the weekends as well...

duncanp · 2 Feb 2020

And the recent strikes in France aren't helping

https://www.lavoixdunord.fr/681476/...ille-flandres-et-des-usagers-qui-restent-quai

The article says that people going from Lille Flandres (the terminus) towards Arras and Douai were unable to board the train unless they arrived twenty minutes before departure, and people trying to board at subsequent stations had no chance.

The article also mentions

Compositions courtes = Short forming
Manque de materiel = rolling stock shortage

stj · 2 Feb 2020

I only use rail in Italy in the summer and locals are packed but many passengers are tourists.So I expect
will be different in winter.High Speed services are reservation only so no problem with overcrowding.

Esker-pades · 2 Feb 2020

Most of the time I've done the TGV in France, it's had most of the seats occupied, even in First.

The Parisien suburban transport seems stuffed, especially RER D.

175mph · 2 Feb 2020

FelixtheCat said:
Most of the time I've done the TGV in France, it's had most of the seats occupied, even in First.

The Parisien suburban transport seems stuffed, especially RER D.

Was that on the double decker TGVs?

It's good to read we aren't alone in the overcrowding issue though.

TheEdge · 2 Feb 2020

No. I stood for almost two hours on a service from Munich to Freillasing

404250 · 2 Feb 2020

Liege to Brussels can be rammed

Bletchleyite · 2 Feb 2020

SBB local services are often formed of a single 4-"car" FLIRT which are often pretty packed. Even more annoying when a second one is coupled but locked OOU, which also isn't unusual (due to platform lengths I think).

IC/IR services tend to be much longer trains but in peak periods standees are not unknown.

And in those countries where compulsory reservations apply there may well not be overcrowding, but what we don't know is how many were simply unable to travel. Compulsory reservations somewhat hide the issue of underprovision because there's no real way to record people who were turned away.

gazzaa2 · 2 Feb 2020

Nearly 200 million people live in Western Europe and increasing all the time. Trains are going to be overcrowded.

Problem with UK is the lack of infrastructure improvements outside of the south east. London is an example of a region which will always have overcrowding due to the amount of people living in/commuting to London, but it's had the infrastructure investments.

Esker-pades · 2 Feb 2020

175mph said:
Was that on the double decker TGVs?

It's good to read we aren't alone in the overcrowding issue though.

Yep..

D365 · 2 Feb 2020

I find it interesting to read how often Munich is mentioned. I wonder whether their "Zweite Stamstrecke" will be anywhere near the risk of being delayed indefinitely à la Crossrail.

3141 · 2 Feb 2020

What's the difference between "overcrowding" and just "crowding"? Having to stand surely isn't overcrowding, unless you've led a very sheltered life. Perhaps having difficulty getting on a train is where overcrowding starts, though you could argue that the train wasn't overcrowded when it arrived at the station where someone couldn't get on it, and still wasn't overcrowded if it departed leaving them behind. But even then there may have been room further down inside, and getting on was a problem only because people in the vestibule wouldn't move down.

There's a standard figure for standing capacity per square metre - I recall 7 people and 8.4 and I don't know which is correct. It would be interesting to know which trains exceed the figure overall.

scotraildriver · 2 Feb 2020

Try travelling regularly around Paris and you will experience overcrowding as the norm, and on a scale rarely seen in the UK. 10 car double deck RER trains that are a wall of people when the doors open. But you get on anyway "make your own space" mentality.

Mugby · 2 Feb 2020

But are we the only country in Europe to have a preponderance of 2-car units on some of the busiest interurban services?

iainbhx · 2 Feb 2020

Spoorslag '70 said:
Definitely not.

Just some examples, in no specific order: S-Bahn München, fast München-Nürnberg REs (via the High Speed Line), RE1 in NRW (Aachen-Hamm), alex-services from Munich, many ICEs, regional trains around Hamburg, trains to/from Brussel, the Dutch railway network...

Basicly all bigger cities will have overcrowded trains into them in the peaks, but especially the longer RE trains (or in Belgium the coastal ICs) are usually extremely busy during the weekends as well...

S-Bahn Nürnberg can be pretty full as well.

Just managed to squeeze on a vastly overcrowded off-peak Thursday afternoon Buchloe-München Hbf last September. Similarly Salzburg-München Ostbf Meridian. Getting the BOB to the lakes on a nice weekend can be fun as well.

221129 · 2 Feb 2020

Mugby said:
But are we the only country in Europe to have a preponderance of 2-car units on some of the busiest interurban services?

Also no.

class387 · 2 Feb 2020

Mugby said:
But are we the only country in Europe to have a preponderance of 2-car units on some of the busiest interurban services?

Was on a Saturday express from Tabor to Prague last year (on the Czech Republic's main north-south mainline) which was formed of only three standard class compartment coaches (and one first class). Full and standing for the entire 2 hour journey.

raetiamann · 2 Feb 2020

This is really the issue with fixed formation sets. We have little spare stock allowing strengthening peak services and this tends to affect commuter sets and longer distance when there is a problem.

I recall being in Thalwil in Switzerland a few years ago, waiting for my train when the morning rush service arrived from Luzern. Normally these are made up of 9 coach double decker set with a push/pull Re460 loco at the Zurich end. On this occasion it was strengthened to 17 coaches to cope with the demand. Swiss federal railways (SBB) have counting sensors on the doors, allowing them to identify which trains need strengthening. This also allows the counting of passengers entering/leaving first class. No way in Britain can we do this.

Bletchleyite · 2 Feb 2020

3141 said:
What's the difference between "overcrowding" and just "crowding"? Having to stand surely isn't overcrowding, unless you've led a very sheltered life.

I would say (just as the UK rules define it) that that depends on the nature of the service.

On very short distance metro type services including trams and buses with a standee seating layout e.g. longitudinal, this is to be expected at any time, and overcrowding would to me indeed be based on it being impossible to board or very uncomfortable.

On medium-distance regional services, I would expect a seat off-peak but some standing in the peaks. A crush-load would be overcrowding even if everyone got to travel.

On InterCity type long distance services, if anyone is standing because they have to (some choose to) then that is overcrowded, except for exceptional situations like major events.

thenorthern · 2 Feb 2020

One thing to remember is in the United Kingdom a lot of intercity trains effectively become commuter trains for part of their journey making them overcrowded for a short period of time while in an urban area.

In France for example most TGV trains from Paris to Marseille either run non stop or only stop at Avignon and Aix-en-Provence. Compare this to the United Kingdom where in a single urban area multiple stations can regularly be served by the same intercity trains effectively turning these trains into local commuter trains. Examples of these include Birmingham, Sandwell & Dudley and Wolverhampton all within the West Midlands Urban Area, Nottingham and Beeston, Bristol's Parkway and Temple Meads, Motherwell and Glasgow Centra, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly and finally Clapham Junction, Watford Junction, Stratford.

HamworthyGoods · 2 Feb 2020

One key thing to remember on many long distance trains in Europe is they sell out after which you cannot travel. UK doesn’t sell out trains in the same way as the French and Italians for example do.

hexagon789 · 2 Feb 2020

Definitely not, from a mixture of experience and reading about other countries railways, overcrowding to the point of standing room only occurs in Ireland, France, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Sweden and even in Switzerland where they are usually quite good at matching train lengths to demand but that's not always enough.

Tbh, I think if you look for it, overcrowding can be found on pretty much any country's railway system, but perhaps not always the same types of train as in the UK. Japan to my mind must be one of the most extreme, you see examples of platform staff that push commuters into the trains to get the doors shut, can't be pleasant. I believe Japan also has FIVE 'rush-hours'.

30907 · 2 Feb 2020

class387 said:
Was on a Saturday express from Tabor to Prague last year (on the Czech Republic's main north-south mainline) which was formed of only three standard class compartment coaches (and one first class). Full and standing for the entire 2 hour journey.

And this in a country which routinely adds extra coaches to trains - waa this one of the new-ish expresses? Offering 1/4 fare travel to students and seniors has had an effect, but holiday routes can be rammed.

HamworthyGoods said:
One key thing to remember on many long distance trains in Europe is they sell out after which you cannot travel. UK doesn’t sell out trains in the same way as the French and Italians for example do.

Spain is another reservation-only country.
DB will tell you a train is fully reserved, but standing (or sitting on the floor) is still allowed

duncanp · 2 Feb 2020

I can remember a few years ago seeing a TV programme (Bombay Railway) about commuter trains in Mumbai, India. Now that is real overcrowding, and makes the tube in the rush hour seem like a Sunday school tea party.

AlbertBeale · 2 Feb 2020

I was on a standing-room-only journey (getting on for 5 hours) from Hamburg to Copenhagen on a weekend in November...

ChiefPlanner · 2 Feb 2020

The Berlin S_Bahn can certainly have it's moments , but nothing really like SE London or Thameslink.

class387 · 2 Feb 2020

30907 said:
And this in a country which routinely adds extra coaches to trains - waa this one of the new-ish expresses? Offering 1/4 fare travel to students and seniors has had an effect, but holiday routes can be rammed.

Nope, just the hourly Rychlik. https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.php?zeme=CD&kategorie=R&cislo=708&nazev=Vltava&rok=2019 seems to suggest extra coaches are added Mon-Fri and on Sundays, but for some reason it's only load 4 on Saturdays.

Are we the only country in Europe to have overcrowding issues on trains?

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