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Scotland's Railway - Potential Enhancement Options

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NotATrainspott

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The 'business case' will take into account social and environmental benefits. When a scheme fails the business case test, that isn't necessarily because the social and environmental benefits are discarded. Rather, it may just be the case that there's a better way to spend the same or less public money (i.e. taxes or borrowing) to get the same or more social or environmental benefit. This unfortunate fact is one of the main killers for rail-based schemes, and why Transport Scotland's processes start with end results rather than technical solutions. For instance, the environmental benefit of adding another rail branch may be marginal compared to the benefit of using that same cash to string up more electrification faster. The social benefit for a small community will likely be better in most cases by subsidising a more comprehensive bus service. A ScotRail through-ticketed and integrated-timetable bus link can deliver most, if not all, of the benefit a dedicated rail link could ever bring to many areas. Indeed, just putting money into better bus services in general will do a lot more for a lot more peoples' day-to-day lives.

Rail is more effective than other modes of public transport only in fairly limited, but not uncommon, circumstances. It's great for getting people from exurbs and outer suburbs into a dense urban core, and it's great for medium-long distance routes where flying isn't a viable alternative while driving becomes uncomfortable. If a proposed scheme fits into that basic pattern then it's normally got a fairly good chance. New stations along a line can be a lot more marginal if there's excess timetable capacity and opportunity for even a modicum of new development, like at Robroyston.
 
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Altnabreac

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Well it includes Almond Chord so it’s not an entirely useless list.

There’s things like Kilmacolm and Penicuik that might have not too awful business cases as well.

But really the most transformational scheme in the west of Scotland would be a cross Glasgow tunnel and it doesn’t get a mention.

Equally in the East of Scotland a new build alignment Inverkeithing - Perth line would be of far more value than attempting to reinstate Glenfarg on the old alignment which appears to be the Railfuture policy.

They’d be much better off picking a few key schemes to really campaign on rather than just publishing nonsensical wish lists but that’s the nature of the membership unfortunately.
 

och aye

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Scotland's railway roadmap: think tank reveals wish-list for our train network

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...p-think-tank-reveals-wish-list-train-network/

I'm really just posting this latest output from Railfuture for the record. I'm not sure if it adds anything to the discussion, and with the exception of three or four items, most of it's pie in the sky, but here it is anyway.
Reinstating the loop to Turnberry?! President Trump will be pleased with that proposal! :lol:

As has been already said be most previous posters, most of this comes across as a bit of a railway enthusiasts ultimate fantasy come true.

The line to Haddington is actually not that impossible to reinstate. The cycle/railway walk path under the A1 would need to rebuilt, a level crossing or new access road to the new development at Gateside Road would need to be built and the industrial buildings on the former station site would need to be purchased. More info about Haddington can be found over at RAGES: http://www.rages.org.uk/Haddington.html
 

47271

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Much of the content on these forums is driven by nostalgia from enthusiasts. It's not a place for a gathering of professionals.
Going by the list, I'd say that nostalgia for archaic routes like Strathmore or Dumfries-Stranraer is as big a factor for Railfuture as it is for a particular type of member of these forums. Some of them I suspect are the same people, and none of them will be professionals worthy of the name.

You're probably right that some of the more wacky ideas like Kirkcudbright, Turnberry, Comrie or Dunblane-Crianlarich haven't entered the public consciousness other than at a very local level, but neither have they registered much on here. But some of them like the Borders extension or Dumfries-Stranraer, or at the more sensible end, Buchan, have had a wide airing in the Scottish media.

They’d be much better off picking a few key schemes to really campaign on rather than just publishing nonsensical wish lists but that’s the nature of the membership unfortunately.
My point exactly. You could even argue that the report sets back the case for comprehensive investment in Scotland's railways by losing valid schemes in a torrent of ideas based on nostalgia and fantasy. The general reader of today's article in The Herald will have been left none the wiser as to what they should specifically be in favour of or how much it would cost.
 

Highland37

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Going by the list, I'd say that nostalgia for archaic routes like Strathmore or Dumfries-Stranraer is as big a factor for Railfuture as it is for a particular type of member of these forums. Some of them I suspect are the same people, and none of them will be professionals worthy of the name.

You're probably right that some of the more wacky ideas like Kirkcudbright, Turnberry, Comrie or Dunblane-Crianlarich haven't entered the public consciousness other than at a very local level, but neither have they registered much on here. But some of them like the Borders extension or Dumfries-Stranraer, or at the more sensible end, Buchan, have had a wide airing in the Scottish media.


My point exactly. You could even argue that the report sets back the case for comprehensive investment in Scotland's railways by losing valid schemes in a torrent of ideas based on nostalgia and fantasy. The general reader of today's article in The Herald will have been left none the wiser as to what they should specifically be in favour of or how much it would cost.

I really don't think that's true. When has Buchan hide wide airing?

I agree that some of the projects are not realistic but much isn't these days in this country.
 

McRhu

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Dunblane - Crianlarich? Now that is a truly beautiful dream, even if that's all it is. I would go for that one.
 

snookertam

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I think logic suggests the priority enhancements to the network over the coming decade should be wide ranging electrification, before consideration is given to any major extensions. In particular East Kilbride, Kilmarnock, Dunblane to Aberdeen/Inverness, along with Fife if a solution for the Forth Bridge can be found. I wouldn't be against electrification to Girvan but I'm not sure it's the kind of priority some suggest.

As an aside, does the Queensferry Crossing have the option for a rail line to be added? If not then it's an absolutely criminal oversight.
 

Starmill

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I don't get what the Queensferry Crossing has to do with Rail at all?
 

NotATrainspott

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The Queensferry Crossing is a cable-stayed bridge which was descoped down to the minimal 2 lanes plus hard shoulder and access walkways. The public transport and non-motor vehicle provision is on the Forth Road Bridge, since that is expected to hold up indefinitely now that heavy traffic loads have been removed. The only new pair of rails proposed for the Forth are a set of tram tracks on the Forth Road Bridge. In all seriousness, this isn't as bad an idea as you think as it would work alongside the ScotRail services to provide a rapid transit service to places in the southernmost part of Fife.

New rail tracks are probably not required for some time. If you're going to add more tracks, you can do a lot just by fiddling with the routes to the north and south so that trains can be more intelligently flighted over the bridge. That's the main benefit of the proposed Inverkeithing-Halbeath line. With it, fast trains will be able to overtake stoppers running via Kirkcaldy - making it to the bridge ahead of them going south and being able to follow right behind going north.
 

tbtc

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The line to Haddington is actually not that impossible to reinstate. The cycle/railway walk path under the A1 would need to rebuilt, a level crossing or new access road to the new development at Gateside Road would need to be built and the industrial buildings on the former station site would need to be purchased. More info about Haddington can be found over at RAGES: http://www.rages.org.uk/Haddington.html

The problem with Haddington IMHO its hat any path for a Haddington service is one that could be used by a North Berwick service or a Dunbar service or an English service - that comes at quite an opportunity cost!

On paper, it's a good shout, a commuter town with no train service into the nearest big city - the kind of service that could be popular - but how do you prioritise a good service to Haddington (half hourly?) when those paths could be used for other services?

Tricky

Electrification will be the biggie plus extension of the Waverly route all the way to Carlisle.

Twedbank to Carlisle is a long way, a long way through fairly empty countryside - Carlisle isn't much of a jobs market - and it'd be so slow that it might even be faster at times of the day to go from Gala to Edinburgh and change there for a Carlisle service (than sit on a train taking the slow alignment beyond Hawick)

But, it's a historic route through a rural place, so it'll have lots of support on here (especially when compared to short simple "ugly" services to post industrial towns like Methil)!

I think logic suggests the priority enhancements to the network over the coming decade should be wide ranging electrification, before consideration is given to any major extensions. In particular East Kilbride, Kilmarnock, Dunblane to Aberdeen/Inverness, along with Fife if a solution for the Forth Bridge can be found. I wouldn't be against electrification to Girvan but I'm not sure it's the kind of priority some suggest

Agreed - keep it simple - focus on the kind of improvements that will benefit large numbers of people - faster longer trains with better acceleration - get rid of the remaining diesel fumes from Waverley wherever possible (even if that means electrifying to Dalmeny and using bi-modes over the Forth).

Kilmarnock/ East Kilbride are good schemes (and you might as well do QS - Anniesland and any other little infills too whilst you're at it) but if people are planing on wiring all the way to Inverness/ Aberdeen before any electrification reaches Fife then... I may respectfully disagree with them!
 

gingertom

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The problem with Haddington IMHO its hat any path for a Haddington service is one that could be used by a North Berwick service or a Dunbar service or an English service - that comes at quite an opportunity cost!
Are there not plans to quadruple the track from Craigentinny to Drem and beyond?
 

kilonewton

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Why is there always someone on here saying “x line can’t be reopened as there’s a bike path / housing / insert some perceived obstacle here in the way”
Look at past reopenings.
Borders, new alignment near the A720.
Airdrie Bathgate, bike path realigned.

The original railways when built were on “new” alignments. It’s not excessively difficult engineering to do.

Cost,both monetary & political, of land acquisition, that’s a different question.
 

Highland37

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In the P&J, which reaches more people nowadays than the woeful Scotsman.

lol. Hardly a wide airing. Yes the P&J reaches a lot more but hardly anyone reads the Scotsman never mind the rest of the papers.

Re business case, I don't think the sleeper would come close to passing the test and that is before its terrible reliability is taken into account.
 

Highland37

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I think logic suggests the priority enhancements to the network over the coming decade should be wide ranging electrification, before consideration is given to any major extensions. In particular East Kilbride, Kilmarnock, Dunblane to Aberdeen/Inverness, along with Fife if a solution for the Forth Bridge can be found. I wouldn't be against electrification to Girvan but I'm not sure it's the kind of priority some suggest.

Sounds sensible. If only one re-opening could be done, I would recommend Peterhead/Fraserburgh.
 

47271

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lol. Hardly a wide airing. Yes the P&J reaches a lot more but hardly anyone reads the Scotsman never mind the rest of the papers.
So where do you want the discussion of reopening of the Buchan Line other than in the main online title covering NE Scotland...? I'm not talking about papers, I never look at them.

Anyway, we agree that the route is one that is worthy of serious consideration amongst Railfuture's rambling list. So no need to discuss where the idea is being discussed!
 

Highland37

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Slightly wider than one paper I would suggest would be more like a decent airing.

Either way, I'd like to see it happen. However, given how expensive rail is these days, any politician will be scared of getting their hands burnt.

As an aside, could all of the ideas in their proposal be implemented for less than the budget of HS2?
 

clc

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Apparently there are plans to relocate Hairmyres station:-

SPT is making a contribution to the overall costs for improved park & ride (over 1,000 spaces), active travel and bus interchange facilities at the proposed new, re- located Hairmyres Rail Station. This forms part of Network Rail’s East Kilbride Rail Enhancement Project

See Appendix 2 - http://www.spt.co.uk/documents/latest/SP070220_Agenda7.pdf
 

route101

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EK has to be priority , noticed today that ek sees two car 156s off peak while Barrhead sees 4 car 156s ,wheres the logic in that?
 

NotATrainspott

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Hairmyres is currently in a fairly constrained location. It's very useful for the DfID and hospital workers/visitors but as a park-and-ride it doesn't work well as people spill over into the hospital parking (a fairly clear example of how totally unmanaged hospital parking can have somewhat unfortunate consequences!).

Moving it would be easiest at the same time as electrification and further doubling. What might be handy if it's moved over to Redwood Drive is that the road could be used as the cross-platform link. That would mean no need for an expensive passenger footbridge and/or lift if a second platform is required for the doubling scheme.
 

Highland37

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I actually went East Kilbride to Central today which was the first time I have been on the line. It really needs electrification as a priority and is a big place for such an 80s-style service so the sooner the better. Getting on the 334 later on felt like moving into a new decade. Both services were very busy.
 

route101

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I actually went East Kilbride to Central today which was the first time I have been on the line. It really needs electrification as a priority and is a big place for such an 80s-style service so the sooner the better. Getting on the 334 later on felt like moving into a new decade. Both services were very busy.

Local line to me , i use it not regularly but yes the service pattern is stuck in the past while passenger numbers increased. Only improvements i can think of is a late 0018 service on Friday nights and introduction of sunday services . Love to see earlier services and later services , theres no 2347 on a friday night .
 

Southsider

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No Sunday service to ek?
That's one of the improvements that has taken place, it's also four car all day as opposed to only two car off peak Mondat to Friday.The most recent improvement is six car services in the peak periods.
 
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