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Thameslink - Slow speed Blackfriars to Streatham

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Uzair

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Hello,

I often take the TL from BFR to WIM. For a while, an incredibly annoying thing that I've realised is the very slow speed trains run at between Blackfriars and Streatham, particularly around Lougborough Junction, Herne Hill & Tulse Hill

Just out of interest, what is the reason for this? Is this due to timetabling to reduce conflicting moves?
 
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43066

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Hello,

I often take the TL from BFR to WIM. For a while, an incredibly annoying thing that I've realised is the very slow speed trains run at between Blackfriars and Streatham, particularly around Lougborough Junction, Herne Hill & Tulse Hill

Just out of interest, what is the reason for this? Is this due to timetabling to reduce conflicting moves?

Low linespeeds, junctions, congestion, a sub optimal railway layout that cannot easily be changed due to the densely built up nature of the area. Herne Hill in particular is a flat junction which crosses the (very busy) Chatham Mainline.

There should be allowance in the timetable for this so that a train that feels like it’s running slowly may will be keeping to time.

The core is similar in this respect - quite generous dwell times are built in so that a train can arrive at one end of the core several minutes down and be back on time once it exits.
 
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Uzair

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Low linespeeds, junctions, congestion, a sub optimal railway layout that cannot easily be changed due to the densely built up nature of the area. Herne Hill in particular is a flat junction which crosses the (very busy) Chatham Mainline.

There should be allowance in the timetable for this so that a train that feels like it’s running slowly may will be keeping to time.

The core is similar in this respect - quite generous dwell times are built in so that a train can arrive at one end of the core several minutes down and be back on time once it exits.

Thank you!

Would you say that this is a bigger restriction compared to the single line at Wimbledon, for why the loop has a limited service?
 

43066

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Thank you!

Would you say that this is a bigger restriction compared to the single line at Wimbledon, for why the loop has a limited service?

I can’t say for sure (@Bald Rick could probably shed some light), but quite possibly.

Overall the railway in that area of London is a rat’s nest of conflicting movements, flat junctions etc. and trains are being squeezed onto it than ever before.

IIRC there was a plan to terminate Sutton Loop services in the Blackfriars bay platforms but that hasn’t come to fruition as yet - and the Blackfriars bays still see quite a few SE services in the peaks.
 

Uzair

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IIRC there was a plan to terminate Sutton Loop services in the Blackfriars bay platforms but that hasn’t come to fruition as yet

I remember this too, but I think an MP stopped this from occurring. Even if loop services were to terminate at Blackfriars, wouldn't this be pointless due to the restrictions of the infrastructure you've mentioned?

and the Blackfriars bays still see quite a few SE services in the peaks.

Indeed, the TL Sevenoaks service spends a lot of time in platform 3.
 

hwl

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I can’t say for sure (@Bald Rick could probably shed some light), but quite possibly.

Overall the railway in that area of London is a rat’s nest of conflicting movements, flat junctions etc. and trains are being squeezed onto it than ever before.

IIRC there was a plan to terminate Sutton Loop services in the Blackfriars bay platforms but that hasn’t come to fruition as yet - and the Blackfriars bays still see quite a few SE services in the peaks.
The extra Sutton Loop services need some others kicked out of the bays / western approach tracks first... (e.g. 2 more SE services transferring to TL and running via LBG instead.
Herne Hill and the swapping services over between the 2 pairs of tracks north of Loughborough junction are the big ones.
 

hwl

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I remember this too, but I think an MP stopped this from occurring. Even if loop services were to terminate at Blackfriars, wouldn't this be pointless due to the restrictions of the infrastructure you've mentioned?
Indeed, the TL Sevenoaks service spends a lot of time in platform 3.
Stephen Hammond of Wimbledon.
2tph extra from the loop to the bays are do-able with infrastructure as is (just on hold), the services would be Blackfriars -Tulse Hill - Wimbledon - Sutton - Tulse Hill - London Bridge to reduce conflicting moves at Tulse Hill etc.
 

43066

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The extra Sutton Loop services need some others kicked out of the bays / western approach tracks first... (e.g. 2 more SE services transferring to TL and running via LBG instead.
Herne Hill and the swapping services over between the 2 pairs of tracks north of Loughborough junction are the big ones.

Thanks for that.

Ironically the peak TL Beckenham Junction - Bedford services via Herne Hill were handed over to SE and now terminate in the bays, which can’t have helped matters.
 

hwl

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Thanks for that.

Ironically the peak TL Beckenham Junction - Bedford services via Herne Hill were handed over to SE and now terminate in the bays, which can’t have helped matters.
That was always part of the plan they only shifted from being SE and going into the the bays to TL for the duration of the thameslink programme - they have now returned "home". The first road block is the 2tph of SE services (Sole Street /Broadstairs /Ashford /Maidstone East) which will become the TL Maidstone East /Ashford services via LBG releasing the space for the extra Sutton loop services
 

43066

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That was always part of the plan they only shifted from being SE and going into the the bays to TL for the duration of the thameslink programme - they have now returned "home". The first road block is the 2tph of SE services (Sole Street /Broadstairs /Ashford /Maidstone East) which will become the TL Maidstone East /Ashford services via LBG releasing the space for the extra Sutton loop services

Ah ok. So 700s are now running into the bay at Beck J?

What’s the latest on the Ashford TL depot? Last I’d heard the trainees based there were either out with SE Ashford DIs, or being taxied up to Orpington/Sevenoaks to do roads around the Catford Loop (which they’re unlikely to actually sign), so not exactly getting a lot of driving done!

As I recall there were major unresolved issues with stabling in Ashford due to problems reopening Chart Leacon depot.
 
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Bald Rick

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Hello,

I often take the TL from BFR to WIM. For a while, an incredibly annoying thing that I've realised is the very slow speed trains run at between Blackfriars and Streatham, particularly around Lougborough Junction, Herne Hill & Tulse Hill

Just out of interest, what is the reason for this? Is this due to timetabling to reduce conflicting moves?

Others posters have explained this well. In summary, there are a lot of junctions, and station, close together. The nature of the south London railway is that it threads its way between buildings and other topographical features, and is often on viaducts.

In this case the junctions at Herne Hill and Tulse Hill and Streatham South are all 20mph simply because they go round tight curves.

The loop could have 4tph each way, easily, and Wimbledon is not the constraining factor. Herne Hill is, along with the conflicts between other services on the approaches to Blackfriars.

So I don't suppose there are plans to untangle any of these areas?

None. TfL have suggested some things, but haven’t done any feasibility work, and their cost estimates are little better than guessing tonight’s lottery numbers.
 

hwl

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None. TfL have suggested some things, but haven’t done any feasibility work, and their cost estimates are little better than guessing tonight’s lottery numbers.
One thing you can guarantee: their cost estimates are always on the low side and need multiplying to get to reality!
 

westcoaster

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Ah ok. So 700s are now running into the bay at Beck J?

What’s the latest on the Ashford TL depot? Last I’d heard the trainees based there were either out with SE Ashford DIs, or being taxied up to Orpington/Sevenoaks to do roads around the Catford Loop (which they’re unlikely to actually sign), so not exactly getting a lot of driving done!

As I recall there were major unresolved issues with stabling in Ashford due to problems reopening Chart Leacon depot.
Ashford is up and running, they operate on the sevenoaks and orpington routes to kentish town.
 

ComUtoR

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114 stops today.

Catford Loops are awful but at least you get a 90mph section, a Metro and a country side section, as well as the fun of the core.

I've noticed that more RLU/RLU marks are cropping up and there are Balises into Vic
 

43066

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114 stops today.

Catford Loops are awful but at least you get a 90mph section, a Metro and a country side section, as well as the fun of the core.

I've noticed that more RLU/RLU marks are cropping up and there are Balises into Vic

Get out of it - by hook or by crook. Whichever way you can mate. It’s a grim, slow death doing that type of work for years on end.

I don’t know how you stand it TBH.
 

thedbdiboy

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That was always part of the plan they only shifted from being SE and going into the the bays to TL for the duration of the thameslink programme - they have now returned "home".
Although before they were the City Thameslink terminators vice Holborn Viaduct. When they reverted from TL to SE the extra bit was lost.
 

387star

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I used to drive these services as part kf the sutton loop although thankfully they were few and far between with the behemoth that used to be Bedford depot having most of the work. However during the London Bridge closure this was a diversion. Only time you get the road through is on nights.

Travelling towards Herne Hill from Blackfriars the signal before Herne Hill is double blocked , I think, with the signal at the end of Herne Hill platform.

There's a steep gradient between Herne and Tulse hill with a dangerous signal in both directions... one requires power towards a red (which is round a curve ) and the other one is treacherous if you forget the starter at Tulse hill was showing one yellow. Sharp drop and on a curve....No signage or banners to remind you.

Awful work. That diversion took 25mins crawling through multiple 20 or 15mph junctions with multiple wrong routes then being stuck behind a southern metro

Now I drive at 85 or 90 for up to 20 min or so between stops on greens
 

AlbertBeale

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Stephen Hammond of Wimbledon.
2tph extra from the loop to the bays are do-able with infrastructure as is (just on hold), the services would be Blackfriars -Tulse Hill - Wimbledon - Sutton - Tulse Hill - London Bridge to reduce conflicting moves at Tulse Hill etc.

So the folks wanting through-London trains from the loop would still keep the existing 2ph each way, but there'd be another pair each way that ended at Blackfriars (ie 4ph terminating there)? And two of these 4ph would get to the terminating platforms having arrived from London Bridge, not E&C? I didn't think the layout allowed for that?

Also, Is there capacity for the extra routes through Herne Hill? And for the ones from the east of the loop on the route between Tulse Hill, Peckham Rye, etc?

The combination of direct routes then possible (and not possible) will add some cartographic fun to the London rail services map! [But then - to the people who put Reading on the tube map, I guess anything can be possible!]
 

swt_passenger

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So the folks wanting through-London trains from the loop would still keep the existing 2ph each way, but there'd be another pair each way that ended at Blackfriars (ie 4ph terminating there)? And two of these 4ph would get to the terminating platforms having arrived from London Bridge, not E&C? I didn't think the layout allowed for that?
The plan is for SN trains from London Bridge, to go via South Bermondsey etc and right round the Sutton/Wimbledon loop and to terminate in the Blackfriars bays. It doesn’t involve the direct route between London Bridge and Blackfriars in any way.

this Realtimetrains query shows part of the eventual SN service, it will be extended to/from Blackfriars, but AIUI will only ever be a peak service:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SN
 

AlbertBeale

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The plan is for SN trains from London Bridge, to go via South Bermondsey etc and right round the Sutton/Wimbledon loop and to terminate in the Blackfriars bays. It doesn’t involve the direct route between London Bridge and Blackfriars in any way.

this Realtimetrains query shows part of the eventual SN service, it will be extended to/from Blackfriars, but AIUI will only ever be a peak service:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SN

Ah - thanks - I'd misunderstood the posting I was replying to. So the full loop pattern would be 2ph each way through London, and 2ph each way shuttling from London Bridge only to Blackfriars via the loop. Which means that, of the 6ph each way there'd then be from Blackfriars to the loop, in total, 4 would go one way round and only 2 the other way. The resident of Carshalton will claim discrimination! But maybe interchanges at Tulse Hill are easy...

At least it makes fuller use of all the under-utilised 4-track railway throgh E&C etc. Next stop - opening the former stations on that line (since the Bakerloo plans don't now go that way now)!
 

hwl

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Ah - thanks - I'd misunderstood the posting I was replying to. So the full loop pattern would be 2ph each way through London, and 2ph each way shuttling from London Bridge only to Blackfriars via the loop. Which means that, of the 6ph each way there'd then be from Blackfriars to the loop, in total, 4 would go one way round and only 2 the other way. The resident of Carshalton will claim discrimination! But maybe interchanges at Tulse Hill are easy...

At least it makes fuller use of all the under-utilised 4-track railway through E&C etc. Next stop - opening the former stations on that line (since the Bakerloo plans don't now go that way now)!

No space on the trains to reopen those stations - that would need 12 car.

Interchange at Tulse Hill won't be so easy as different platforms (with narrow underpass and overbridge between) are used to reduce conflicting juction moves there. Streatham would be the best interchange location as it is same platform.

The current 2tph peak Southern London Bridge - South Bermondsey - Tulse Hill - Wimbledon would be replaced by 2tph Blackfriars - Elephant and Castle - Tulse Hill - Wimbledon - Sutton - Tulse Hill - South Bermondsey - London Bridge which actually reduces conflicting moves east of Tulse Hill!
 

Surreytraveller

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Ah - thanks - I'd misunderstood the posting I was replying to. So the full loop pattern would be 2ph each way through London, and 2ph each way shuttling from London Bridge only to Blackfriars via the loop. Which means that, of the 6ph each way there'd then be from Blackfriars to the loop, in total, 4 would go one way round and only 2 the other way. The resident of Carshalton will claim discrimination! But maybe interchanges at Tulse Hill are easy...

At least it makes fuller use of all the under-utilised 4-track railway throgh E&C etc. Next stop - opening the former stations on that line (since the Bakerloo plans don't now go that way now)!
Carshalton would have a brilliant service. 4ph to Victoria, 2ph to the Core, and 2ph to London Bridge. In the other direction, that's 8ph to Sutton, with 4 continuing to Epsom, the other 4 going round the loop.
Don't know why the loop can't have 2ph going to Victoria rather than Blackfriars?
 

hwl

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Carshalton would have a brilliant service. 4ph to Victoria, 2ph to the Core, and 2ph to London Bridge. In the other direction, that's 8ph to Sutton, with 4 continuing to Epsom, the other 4 going round the loop.
Don't know why the loop can't have 2ph going to Victoria rather than Blackfriars?
Which other places would lose their Victoria services to do that? Plenty of opportunity to change to get to Victoria from the loop but there wouldn't be the opportunity to get to London Bridge /Core if more went to Victoria as the interchange opportunities at Streatham / Tulse Hill
 

Surreytraveller

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Which other places would lose their Victoria services to do that? Plenty of opportunity to change to get to Victoria from the loop but there wouldn't be the opportunity to get to London Bridge /Core if more went to Victoria as the interchange opportunities at Streatham / Tulse Hill
Two ph could go to Victoria instead of Blackfriars. You cannot change at Streatham or Tulse Hill for Victoria
 

DynamicSpirit

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I remember this too, but I think an MP stopped this from occurring. Even if loop services were to terminate at Blackfriars, wouldn't this be pointless due to the restrictions of the infrastructure you've mentioned?

Having those services (and, indeed, anything from Elephant and Castle) terminating at Blackfriars removes conflicting moves outside Blackfriars. And any conflicting moves you can remove makes the timetable a bit more flexible and robust - and therefore presumably better able to cope with the mess of conflicting moves further down the line.
 
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