Help- Being Prosecuted by TFL

J4u4u2c · 30 Dec 2019

Even though its a bylaw offence will it show up on my DBS check, and some people say it mistakenly sometime appears if it appears can i call DBS and get it removed as its a bylaw and a non recordable criminal record.
I have worked so hard in my career to get to where i am, i made a stupid mistake of doing what i have done now I dont want that to affect my career etc.

RailUK Forums

some bloke · 30 Dec 2019

You can make a Subject Access Request to find out if it's on the PNC:
http://www.acro.police.uk/SA-Further-guidance

What information do you have suggesting such a minor conviction might affect your career?

J4u4u2c · 30 Dec 2019

some bloke said:
What information do you have suggesting such a minor conviction might affect your career?

The organisation I work for have public service clients- who do a full DBS check, if anything even remotely appears here I will be not allowed to work anymore thus getting my contract terminated.

However- I am wondering as they charged me for "Contrary to ByLaw 17(1) of the TFL railway byelaws made under paragraph 26 of schedule 11 to the greater london authority act 1999 and confirmed under sec 67 of the transport act 1962" this shouldnt appear on my basic/ enhanced DBS check right and only will appear on the PNC?

I spoke to the TFL's prosecutor and they said they will take this forward to court as they seen a regular pattern on my travel history pls help. I need to give my plea in my tomorrow online.

some bloke · 30 Dec 2019

This may also be of interest:
https://www.gov.uk/report-problem-criminal-record-certificate/dispute-a-mistake

J4u4u2c said:
will it show up on my DBS check

For enhanced checks, the police decide what information is relevant to the situation. But it isn't clear why they would decide - even if they knew about it outside the PNC system - that a conviction for this would be relevant.
https://www.gov.uk/dbs-check-applicant-criminal-record

some bloke · 30 Dec 2019

J4u4u2c said:
only will appear on the PNC?

It shouldn't appear on the PNC (unless someone is convicted for a recordable offence at the same time) - that's what is meant by "non-recordable".

J4u4u2c said:
if anything even remotely appears here I will be not allowed to work anymore thus getting my contract terminated.

Please clarify exactly what the documents say.

J4u4u2c · 30 Dec 2019

some bloke said:
This may also be of interest:
https://www.gov.uk/report-problem-criminal-record-certificate/dispute-a-mistake

For enhanced checks, the police decide what information is relevant to the situation. But it isn't clear why they would decide - even if they knew about it outside the PNC system - that a conviction for this would be relevant.
https://www.gov.uk/dbs-check-applicant-criminal-record

Even though it is a non recordable criminal record I hear it can mistakenly be added to DBS/ Enhanced DBS in that case can I dispute?

Thanks for your help

some bloke · 30 Dec 2019

Or if that would be too much information, the gist of the rule(s).

J4u4u2c · 30 Dec 2019

some bloke said:
Please clarify exactly what the documents say.

My contract or Single justice notice from the court?

J4u4u2c · 30 Dec 2019

some bloke said:
Or if that would be too much information, the gist of the rule(s).

My Contract states the following:
Security Clearance
During your employment you may be required to give your consent for security checks to be carried out. When this is required, you will be notified in advance and the purpose of the checks will be explained to you. Failure to provide consent in these circumstances may lead to disciplinary action and/or you not being permitted to work on certain client accounts.

some bloke · 30 Dec 2019

J4u4u2c said:
My Contract states the following:
Security Clearance
During your employment you may be required to give your consent for security checks to be carried out. When this is required, you will be notified in advance and the purpose of the checks will be explained to you. Failure to provide consent in these circumstances may lead to disciplinary action and/or you not being permitted to work on certain client accounts.

You won't fail to provide consent (I hope). Security checks aren't about making sure people are saints who never make an error.

J4u4u2c said:
I hear it can mistakenly be added to DBS/ Enhanced DBS in that case can I dispute?

Yes - see the links above on Subject Access Request and on disputes (if the latter isn't the right place they should be able to direct you).

island · 30 Dec 2019

J4u4u2c said:
The organisation I work for have public service clients- who do a full DBS check, if anything even remotely appears here I will be not allowed to work anymore thus getting my contract terminated.

There is no such thing as a “full DBS check”, only basic, standard, and enhanced.

A conviction under the byelaws you’re being charged under should not appear on a basic or standard DBS check. It might (or might not) appear on an enhanced DBS check, if the officer handling the check request considers it relevant to the purpose of the check.

Who told you that “if anything even remotely appears here” you “will not be allowed to work anymore”? This is rarely if ever the case.

some bloke · 30 Dec 2019

J4u4u2c said:
My Contract states the following: ...security checks...Failure to provide consent in these circumstances may lead to disciplinary action and/or you not being permitted to work on certain client accounts.

If the person won't give consent for checks, it's perfectly reasonable for organisations to have the option of disciplining them, or stopping them working on some projects.

That's very different from the idea that any minor conviction leads to dismissal. People often make mistakes at work. There is no obvious reason why a ticketing offence that doesn't imply dishonesty should have a significant effect on suitability for a job, any more than a minor mistake at work.

There are comments in a previous thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/help-with-sv-application.195689/#post-4304861

island said:
It might (or might not) appear on an enhanced DBS check, if the officer handling the check request considers it relevant to the purpose of the check.

Also, it isn't clear to me that the officer in a particular force would necessarily know about the "non-recordable" conviction in the first place.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...mation-are-shown-on-enhanced-dbs-certificates

J4u4u2c · 2 Feb 2020

I have now recieved an outcome from the court, does this mean I have a criminal record? What is the severity of this? I made a good plea and gave all the reasoning and mitigating circumstances as to why i shouldnt get prosecuted, I am also dyslexic, dyspraxic and suffer from visual stress which i believed helped me with this case.
What is an absolute discharge and what are the ramification of this?

pedr · 2 Feb 2020

Here is the page on absolute discharges from the charity Unlock: https://hub.unlock.org.uk/knowledgebase/absolute-discharge/ - effectively an absolute discharge is the issuing of no penalty (the £225 is a contribution to the court's costs in processing the case, not a fine).

island · 3 Feb 2020

An absolute discharge means that you were deemed to be guilty of the offence, but that the court thinks punishing you would not be appropriate.

You have received a criminal conviction. It is spent immediately so need not be disclosed for most purposes; however, if applying for certain professional roles, security industry, working with children etc. you would still need to disclose it.

BC · 3 Feb 2020

J4u4u2c said:
My Contract states the following:
Security Clearance
During your employment you may be required to give your consent for security checks to be carried out. When this is required, you will be notified in advance and the purpose of the checks will be explained to you. Failure to provide consent in these circumstances may lead to disciplinary action and/or you not being permitted to work on certain client accounts.

I hold an SC and DV clearance. A bylaws conviction like that will only ever be an issue if you fail to disclose it when asked. You'd be quite surprised at the convictions that are acceptable and they don't really care about - this is so far under the radar they wont care, UNLESS you fail to declare when asked.

J4u4u2c · 3 Feb 2020

I thought I wouldnt have to declare my conviction because its spent immediately? So if a SC or DC is carried out do I have to declare it? If yes, what do I declare this conviction as?

BC · 3 Feb 2020

You tell them it was a railway bylaws offence for being ticketless in a compulsory area and you had an absolute discharge. DON'T mention the costs, that will make it look like a fine and will possibly confuse them.

some bloke · 3 Feb 2020

J4u4u2c said:
I thought I wouldnt have to declare my conviction because its spent immediately? So if a SC or DC is carried out do I have to declare it?

As others have said, this conviction is likely to be regarded as a very minor matter and you would be well advised to err on the side of disclosure if you are unsure.

You would be required to disclose the spent conviction for formal government "security clearance". That means an official Counter-Terrorist Check, Security Check or Developed Vetting. But the text you posted doesn't make clear that it's any of those.

Your organisation may be referring to some other check, notably the "Baseline Personnel Security Standard", which would be a normal standard to apply. The BPSS is not formal security clearance, and would not require you to disclose the spent conviction - see page 12 of the PDF document here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-baseline-personnel-security-standard

Also, as a DBS check required for BPSS would only be the "basic" check, it should normally only show "recordable" convictions and so not include a byelaw conviction (see pages 21-2 of the same document, and the posts above).

3rd rail land · 3 Feb 2020

J4u4u2c said:
I thought I wouldnt have to declare my conviction because its spent immediately? So if a SC or DC is carried out do I have to declare it? If yes, what do I declare this conviction as?

I hold SC with the Government as I work for a company doing work on their behalf. I can't remember exactly what you have to declare but this type of minor offence will not stop you getting SC.
It may affect your ability to gain DV though. I may have to gain DV myself and was asked some pre-vet questions by a security person. One of the questions was if I had any criminal convictions. There was no mention iof whetehre taht included spent convictions.

Islineclear3_1 · 3 Feb 2020

Bearclaw said:
You tell them it was a railway bylaws offence for being ticketless in a compulsory area and you had an absolute discharge. DON'T mention the costs, that will make it look like a fine and will possibly confuse them.

And your employer might not mind/care about the minor transgression itself; what does matter (to them) is that you are up-front and honest and declare it.

I have plenty of staff with minor transgressions and unspent convinctions (from many, many years ago) on their work records and they are still in employment

Well done, pay the £225 promptly and don't do it again

J4u4u2c · 4 Feb 2020

Yes but my record is spent- so i dont have to let my employers know right?
Also- when they do SC and DV clearance will i have to declare it if its for public sector clients?

J4u4u2c · 4 Feb 2020

And after how long will this not appear on my Enhanced Dbs/ SC / DV check?

najaB · 4 Feb 2020

J4u4u2c said:
Yes but my record is spent- so i dont have to let my employers know right?

Generally speaking, no you wouldn't have to tell anyone as it's a spent conviction and (again generally speaking) there would be no obligation to disclose it. However you would need to look at your specific employment contract.

najaB · 4 Feb 2020

J4u4u2c said:
And after how long will this not appear on my Enhanced Dbs/ SC / DV check?

It will be recorded on the PNC indefinitely and will be revealed if the Police Commissioner believes that it is relevant to the enquiry being made.

duffield · 4 Feb 2020

As far as SC goes, all I had to do (before I retired) from the Criminal Record point of view was provide a 'Disclosure Scotland' certificate (I was based in England, seems a bit odd to do it via Scotland, but it's just how it worked), which wouldn't have shown this sort of thing. But I understand DV and DV enhanced is more intensive.

As an aside, I was quite put out that despite me being totally upfront about having diagnosed depression and anxiety, which my employers were fully aware of, my SC clearance was delayed by six months despite me giving immediate and full permission for my employer to get all necessary information from my doctor. If I hadn't mentioned it, I'd probably have been fine. Anyhow, I'm retired now so 'whatever'.

BC · 5 Feb 2020

J4u4u2c said:
Yes but my record is spent- so i dont have to let my employers know right?
Also- when they do SC and DV clearance will i have to declare it if its for public sector clients?

You won't have to tell your employer as it is spent.

When they do either SC, a CTC or DV clearance you MUST tell them. You cannot consider any conviction as spent for these checks.

I appreciate you are worried but it simply wont matter one jot if you tell them. I know personally of people with convictions for using class A drugs that sailed through an SC check. Accidentally picking up the wrong ticket is not dishonest. Hiding it by not declaring it is way worse.

Llanigraham · 5 Feb 2020

Bearclaw said:
You won't have to tell your employer as it is spent.

When they do either SC, a CTC or DV clearance you MUST tell them. You cannot consider any conviction as spent for these checks.

I appreciate you are worried but it simply wont matter one jot if you tell them. I know personally of people with convictions for using class A drugs that sailed through an SC check. Accidentally picking up the wrong ticket is not dishonest. Hiding it by not declaring it is way worse.

That depends on how the question is phased by the employer.

some bloke · 5 Feb 2020

For SC, CTC and DV, the questionnaires are here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/national-security-vetting

najaB said:
It will be recorded on the PNC

It shouldn't be, as it's for a "non-recordable" offence. Related issues are in posts beginning here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/help-being-prosecuted-by-tfl.196994/page-2#post-4357716

Help- Being Prosecuted by TFL

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