New Merseyrail Stock - 8 car workings?

gray1404 · 2 Feb 2020

Currently Merseyrail run 6 carriage trains during some of the peak workings on the Southport line. This is very welcome and when it is short formed of only 3 carriages, it can sometimes be impossible to board in the peak.

I understand the new trains will all be 4 carriage formations. Does anyone know if it will be possible and if they plan to make these 8 carriages during the peak (i.e. two trains together)?

If not, 4 carriages in the peak will not be good enough and will be a step backwards. I am sure these trains will have selective door opening and it would be possible to apply this at stations with short platforms. It also looks like there is not actually much seating available on their new trains either.

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Harryn9000 · 2 Feb 2020

most stations can take the 8 cars as there length is similar to current fleet. only station thats a issue is southport from what i have read. but the plan is for them to run as 8 cars in peak time according to merseyrail.

gray1404 · 2 Feb 2020

I assume it will be Southport platform one that will be an issue. That can be easily overcome by making sure that in the peaks, 8 car services use the other platforms.

I was going to suggest selective door opening but I suspect this won't be possible as the end of the train will still be occupying part of the previous section as that is a signal at the top of each platform.

I really hope Merseyrail do not use this as an excuse to not run any 8 carriage services on the Southport line. In the AM and PM peaks longer trains will continue to be greatly needed.

Bletchleyite · 2 Feb 2020

There are a few issues with 8-car working but they will likely get resolved in some manner. Remember they are articulated Stadler kit, so the vehicles are shorter than normal. A 4-car set isn't much longer than a 3-car 507.

They won't have SDO (or if they do it won't be used). Instead you'll note that the end vehicles have one set of doors half way along. The reason for this is so that the rear door of an 8-car formation is platformed even if the actual back of the unit isn't. So no extensions required.

ivzem · 2 Feb 2020

AIUI yes, 8 car workings are possible, and the number of seats per unit is about the same as on the 507/508 fleet (192 old vs 190 new).

Harryn9000 · 2 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
I assume it will be Southport platform one that will be an issue. That can be easily overcome by making sure that in the peaks, 8 car services use the other platforms.

I was going to suggest selective door opening but I suspect this won't be possible as the end of the train will still be occupying part of the previous section as that is a signal at the top of each platform.

I really hope Merseyrail do not use this as an excuse to not run any 8 carriage services on the Southport line. In the AM and PM peaks longer trains will continue to be greatly needed.

from what i gather the 4 cars are same length as 507/508 but they will be doubled up on peaks like they are now. i don't think merseyrail would be stupid to go backwards.

Bletchleyite · 2 Feb 2020

Harryn9000 said:
from what i gather the 4 cars are same length as 507/508 but they will be doubled up on peaks like they are now. i don't think merseyrail would be stupid to go backwards.

They are slightly longer but not much longer, and the door positions take care of that.

Harryn9000 · 2 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
They are slightly longer but not much longer, and the door positions take care of that.

i can't wait to use them for work they look brilliant from the pictures

gray1404 · 2 Feb 2020

Once they are all in service it will be interesting to see what they can deliver in terms of reduced journey times.

Harryn9000 · 2 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
Once they are all in service it will be interesting to see what they can deliver in terms of reduced journey times.

i think they will reduce journey times on some routes

507 001 · 3 Feb 2020

They won’t fit between the starting signals at Liverpool Central (Northern) or in Central reversing siding as 8 cars. So for the time being at least I doubt there will be 8 car workings on the Northern line.

jamesst · 3 Feb 2020

507 001 said:
They won’t fit between the starting signals at Liverpool Central (Northern) or in Central reversing siding as 8 cars. So for the time being at least I doubt there will be 8 car workings on the Northern line.

Theres a gpls signal for trains to turn back at the start of the hunts cross single bore just past liverpool central (adjacent to the reversal siding). Easily able to take a 8 car as this has been used on rare occasions to take a 9 car 507/508 ecs from kirkdale to Birkenhead north depot.

Green Lane is where SDO may have to be used regardless of the new door positions due to short platforms.

507 001 · 3 Feb 2020

jamesst said:
Theres a gpls signal for trains to turn back at the start of the hunts cross single bore just past liverpool central (adjacent to the reversal siding). Easily able to take a 8 car as this has been used on rare occasions to take a 9 car 507/508 ecs from kirkdale to Birkenhead north depot.

Green Lane is where SDO may have to be used regardless of the new door positions due to short platforms.

Yes I know, but would turning them back there not create capacity issues?

Even if not, it still suggests that nobody really thought this through before ordering. A square peg for a round hole sort of thing.

AllanA1981 · 3 Feb 2020

Merseyrail have already announced in late 2019 that during early 2020 work will be done on moving signals so as to accommodate 8 car trains.

Bletchleyite · 3 Feb 2020

AllanA1981 said:
Merseyrail have already announced in late 2019 that during early 2020 work will be done on moving signals so as to accommodate 8 car trains.

No great surprise there. And once again the Forum naysayers are proven wrong. Are they ever correct?

TheSel · 3 Feb 2020

Note it's not just Southports that get 6 car formations - several peak-hour Ormskirks are 6 car 507/508 too. It's these that need to turn back at Liverpool Central, rather than the Southports which pretty well all run through to Hunts Cross.

Look at Real Time trains for somewhere like, say, Town Green between 1500 - 1700 (M-F). There are several 5Gnn workings from Kirkdale Carriage Sidings to Ormskirk which follow a (3 car) service train, then couple up to that unit in Ormskirk to become six car formations for the peaks.

Lloyds siding · 3 Feb 2020

The 8 car arrangements were especially desired to provide extra capacity on the peak hours trains to and from Southport. The fact that they don't actually fit into Southport Chapel Street, which now needs extensive work on the junctions and presumably signalling appears to have come as a shock. The latest I've heard is that the 777s are to be introduced on the Kirkby line, with the 507/508s being retained for the Hunts Cross-Southport until several engineering problems are sorted.

507 001 · 4 Feb 2020

Lloyds siding said:
The 8 car arrangements were especially desired to provide extra capacity on the peak hours trains to and from Southport. The fact that they don't actually fit into Southport Chapel Street, which now needs extensive work on the junctions and presumably signalling appears to have come as a shock. The latest I've heard is that the 777s are to be introduced on the Kirkby line, with the 507/508s being retained for the Hunts Cross-Southport until several engineering problems are sorted.

Indeed. It was always known that some signals around the loop and link would have to be moved.
The Southport issue is bizarre though.

Will an 8 car set fit in Sandhills Reversing siding?

M28361M · 4 Feb 2020

This piece from Tony Miles on the Railway Gazette website would seem to answer most of the questions raised above:

‘Running four car units will not be a problem. Where we are limited is the operation of eight-car sets, which will be required on the busier routes. This work involves a mix of platform lengthening and moving some signals, either where longer trains would pass existing platform end signals or where we need to meet new sighting regulations.’

The signal sighting review has been done as a ‘desk-top’ modelling exercise, but final decisions will be taken once the first set starts running on the network and the assessments can be validated, Powell explains. He anticipates that a ‘reasonable number’ of signals will need to be relocated, with the final total being ‘in double figures’.

The biggest challenge will be at Southport, where platform lengths are constrained by turnouts immediately beyond the platform ends; the platforms may have to be extended towards the concourse.

Work is also underway to strengthen the power supply, improving the existing supply connections and adding new substations. Long distances between feeder points mean that the nominal 750 V DC can fall to below 400 V at some locations. The less-powerful Class 507s and 508s with their basic control systems can cope with the low voltage, albeit with reduced performance, but the Class 777s, with their higher power demand and modern control systems cannot operate when the supply falls below about 500 V.

Full article at https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/merseyrail-class-777-arrives-in-liverpool/55686.article

jamesst · 4 Feb 2020

507 001 said:
Indeed. It was always known that some signals around the loop and link would have to be moved.
The Southport issue is bizarre though.

Will an 8 car set fit in Sandhills Reversing siding?

Yep, Sandhills reverser can take a 9 car

Bovverboy · 4 Feb 2020

Harryn9000 said:
from what i gather the 4 cars are same length as 507/508 but they will be doubled up on peaks like they are now. i don't think merseyrail would be stupid to go backwards.

If 52x777s are going to replace 59x507/508s, doesn't that mean there are going to be fewer double sets out at peak?

jamesst · 4 Feb 2020

Bovverboy said:
If 52x777s are going to replace 59x507/508s, doesn't that mean there are going to be fewer double sets out at peak?

Shouldnt do, they need 50 units for service per weekday now so should be ok.
There is however a belief in certain quarters that the 777s will run perfectly from day 1, make of that what you will!

D365 · 4 Feb 2020

jamesst said:
There is however a belief in certain quarters that the 777s will run perfectly from day 1, make of that what you will!

This is exactly the issue I foresee with reducing the overall fleet size. When the 2009TS was bought in on the Victoria Line to replace the 1969TS, the increase in overall fleet size (which wasn't needed until the ATO upgrade was complete) meant they had a lot of slack to deal with the initial (and inevitable) teething troubles.

TheSel · 4 Feb 2020

jamesst said:
Shouldnt do, they need 50 units for service per weekday now so should be ok.
There is however a belief in certain quarters that the 777s will run perfectly from day 1, make of that what you will!

52 sets to cover the work of 50 (all other things being equal) means an expected 96% availability. Good luck with that one - not only from day 1, but also when overhauls are due, during periodic refresh / re-branding exercises (bound to happen during their lifetime) and so on.

OK - I suspect the powers that be are expecting some 'efficiency savings', saving a unit here or there by some acceleration of services, but does anyone have % availability figures for other classes at, let's say:

0-1 years
5-10 years
20 years
30+ years

In how many cases is the answer >=96%?

Bletchleyite · 4 Feb 2020

Services will be substantially accelerated, though I'd be interested to know whether an extra unit or two will be required if driver door closure is not happening, which I suspect it's probably not though I forget the current agreement's details. (Guard operation of doors adds on a few seconds to each stop for the closure of the local door and "buzz buzz, buzz buzz", which isn't a huge amount of time, but on a line like Southport does overall add up to a couple of minutes on an end to end run - after all, the addition of hustle alarms in the 1990s required adding 2 minutes to a Liverpool-Ormskirk run to maintain punctuality).

AllanA1981 · 4 Feb 2020

Just as well they have an option to buy more then. Someone will know the number but it about 14 more optional.

They will almost certainly have to use that option. The amount of leeway with this amount of units at 52 is shockingly low.

S&CLER · 4 Feb 2020

Does anyone know exactly how long the space between the end of the rock-faced cutting under Moor Street and Derby Road bridge at Ormskirk is? Would there be room for 8-car 777s if Ormskirk station platforms were moved about 200 yards south, and a new bus/rail interchange built with platforms in the wide shallow cutting and lifts up to the bus station from the platforms? This was a Lancs CC aspiration back in the 1970s, but in the end the existing Ormskirk station was renovated instead. Does anyone have a photograph of a 6-car 507or 508 occupying this space, so we could see what fits?

The bus station certainly needs a bit of TLC at the moment. There is a 250 yard footpath down from the bus station to the railway station, but it's currently out of use for 8 weeks for surface and lighting improvements. It's unfortunate that several of Lancashire's transport upgrades have been allowed to run down (Nelson, Burscough Bridge, Ormskirk) with information offices closing.

Ormskirk bus/rail interchange could be built whether or not Ormskirk became a through station again. It could be built as 2 back-to-back termini, with 2 platforms in the south bay and one in the north. A temporary steel deck between them with a gravel non-slip surface would be designed for easy removal later if electrification to Burscough was authorised. The existing footway under the easternmost arch of Derby Road bridge, where the old 5-car Ormskirk bay used to be, could be modified for interchange between Merseyrail and trains to Preston in the meantime. The car park would be a bit further from the station than it is now, but that's the only drawback I can see.

Bletchleyite · 4 Feb 2020

Ormskirk is primarily a traffic source, not a traffic sink. This being the case, the station's present location with a decent car park is probably more useful overall than moving it closer to the centre. It's not a long walk to the bus station, 5 minutes maybe, and most people won't be getting there by bus for rail travel anyway, they'll be locals. (Most places served from Ormskirk by bus have their own railway station so it is not really a railhead).

I believe there is a plan to rebuild the bus station funded by some sort of (I think) student accommodation on the car park.

507 001 · 4 Feb 2020

TheSel said:
52 sets to cover the work of 50 (all other things being equal) means an expected 96% availability. Good luck with that one - not only from day 1, but also when overhauls are due, during periodic refresh / re-branding exercises (bound to happen during their lifetime) and so on.

OK - I suspect the powers that be are expecting some 'efficiency savings', saving a unit here or there by some acceleration of services, but does anyone have % availability figures for other classes at, let's say:

0-1 years
5-10 years
20 years
30+ years

In how many cases is the answer >=96%?

Certain managers are of the opinion that the number received will be 53.

D365 · 4 Feb 2020

507 001 said:
Certain managers are of the opinion that the number received will be 53.

For their sake, let us hope that the order quantity does go up.

New Merseyrail Stock - 8 car workings?

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