Advance tickets and connecting trains

Talent · 2 Feb 2020

Dear all,

I bought an advance ticket from Manchester to Colchester.

7:55 - Manchester Piccadilly 10:08 - London Euston (reservation)
10:08 - London Euston 11:02 - London Liverpool Street Tube
11:02 - London Liverpool Street 11:47 - Colchester Train Reserved - no seat allocated.

If the train to Euston is on time I might get an earlier train to Colchester (10:30). But as this train is reservable, I'm not allowed to. Right?

RailUK Forums

DelW · 2 Feb 2020

I've asked a similar question in the past, when the second train was Waterloo to Portsmouth (no reservations on that route) and the itinerary gave me a ludicrously long transfer time of 1h 15m from EUS to WAT.
The collective advice was that I did need to wait for the specific train shown on the ticket, to be sure of avoiding problems if inspected.

JBuchananGB · 2 Feb 2020

You should take the booked train, not take any chances. Ticket not valid on any other train.

gray1404 · 2 Feb 2020

As your connection is a "booked" train i.e. train printed on the ticket even thought it is a "counted place" rather then an actual seat, your ticket is only valid on that train. If you are early you have to wait for your booked train I'm afraid. The only exception to this is if your earlier train is delay/cancelled or if the train with the counted place is cancelled.

route101 · 2 Feb 2020

Never had this issue on advances between Glasgow and Newcastle on services via Falkirk High.

30907 · 2 Feb 2020

route101 said:
Never had this issue on advances between Glasgow and Newcastle on services via Falkirk High.

Do those have reservations of any form?

route101 · 2 Feb 2020

30907 said:
Do those have reservations of any form?

Ah they dont , getting mixed up . Only the in ternary specifies a services , quite often a very short connection in Waverley.

trainophile · 2 Feb 2020

Same problem regularly at Crewe, arriving off the TfW at **28 and having to let the **31 to Liverpool go, and wait for the **57. Very frustrating, but I suppose it's only half an hour in my case. Ludicrous if it's over an hour.

route101 · 2 Feb 2020

trainophile said:
Same problem regularly at Crewe, arriving off the TfW at **28 and having to let the **31 to Liverpool go, and wait for the **57. Very frustrating, but I suppose it's only half an hour in my case. Ludicrous if it's over an hour.

Have this at Preston at times heading north to Glasgow.

JBuchananGB · 2 Feb 2020

If the OP had booked to somewhere like Shenfield, or even Marks Tey, i.e. somewhere served by non reservable trains, then the Advance would probably have been issued as Avanti & connections, meaning any suitable train from Liverpool Street, but because the train to Colchester is the “intercity” service to Norwich, it is reservable, which is why the ticket stipulates the specific train.

JonathanH · 2 Feb 2020

JBuchananGB said:
If the OP had booked to somewhere like Shenfield, or even Marks Tey, i.e. somewhere served by non reservable trains, then the Advance would probably have been issued as Avanti & connections, meaning any suitable train from Liverpool Street, but because the train to Colchester is the “intercity” service to Norwich, it is reservable, which is why the ticket stipulates the specific train.

It isn't just the Norwich trains which have reservations on the GEML. The Clacton trains and some Ipswich trains have counted place reservations as well.

However, had the OP 'booked' on the 1104 to Ipswich instead of the 1102 to Norwich, they could potentially have caught the 1034 to Colchester Town as no reservations would have been issued for the 1104 service.

The ticket will be issued with the routeing 'AWC & Connections' regardless of whether the intended connection on the GEML is reservable or not.

gray1404 · 2 Feb 2020

It is a shame the rule isn't that on "TOC X & Connections" Advance tickets the compulsory travel only applied to the leg(s) with the stated TOC and the "and Connections" can be any suitable train(s). Yes, it can be useful to have a seat reservation if these are offered its a shame this then makes that train a compulsory one (likewise with "counted place" spaces.)

yorkie · 2 Feb 2020

Talent said:
Dear all,

I bought an advance ticket from Manchester to Colchester.

7:55 - Manchester Piccadilly 10:08 - London Euston (reservation)
10:08 - London Euston 11:02 - London Liverpool Street Tube
11:02 - London Liverpool Street 11:47 - Colchester Train Reserved - no seat allocated.

If the train to Euston is on time I might get an earlier train to Colchester (10:30). But as this train is reservable, I'm not allowed to. Right?

It's a grey area.

What I would do, is approach staff on the 10:30 service; show the ticket and explain you're travelling to Manchester and Colchester and ask if you can take this train as your connecting service.

221129 · 3 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
It's a grey area.

What I would do, is approach staff on the 10:30 service; show the ticket and explain you're travelling to Manchester and Colchester and ask if you can take this train as your connecting service.

Not sure where the grey area is? They have Booked train only tickets with 2 Booked trains. They need to travel on their Booker trains.

JBuchananGB · 3 Feb 2020

In reality, arriving at Euston at 10.08, it is fairly unlikely that the OP will make it across to LST in time for either the 10.30 or the 10.34, and even if he could catch the 10.34, that only gains him 10 minutes at Colchester compared to the 11.02. Better all round not to bust a gut, and just aim for the 11.02 in a relaxed way.

DelW · 3 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
It is a shame the rule isn't that on "TOC X & Connections" Advance tickets the compulsory travel only applied to the leg(s) with the stated TOC and the "and Connections" can be any suitable train(s). Yes, it can be useful to have a seat reservation if these are offered its a shame this then makes that train a compulsory one (likewise with "counted place" spaces.)

It's a perishing nuisance, especially when the system enforces such slack connections.
In my case (post 2 above) I was at Waterloo in good time for (IIRC) the 16:00 train, but had to wait for the probably busier 16:45. So it didn't suit either me or SWR, and the only beneficiary was the bar under the arches, where I had a beer to pass the time.
Generally now if I'm travelling back on an advance, I split tickets in London to avoid the issue. Possibly costs me more, but I save that in not buying beer at London prices

221129 · 3 Feb 2020

DelW said:
It's a perishing nuisance, especially when the system enforces such slack connections.
In my case (post 2 above) I was at Waterloo in good time for (IIRC) the 16:00 train, but had to wait for the probably busier 16:45. So it didn't suit either me or SWR, and the only beneficiary was the bar under the arches, where I had a beer to pass the time.
Generally now if I'm travelling back on an advance, I split tickets in London to avoid the issue. Possibly costs me more, but I save that in not buying beer at London prices

Which is all well and good until your train into London is late and you miss your connection and have to buy new walk up tickets..

paul1609 · 3 Feb 2020

221129 said:
Which is all well and good until your train into London is late and you miss your connection and have to buy new walk up tickets..

I do a lot of travelling through London and I find the best combination 95% of the time will be a an advance ticket north of London and a flexible ticket south of London. The difference between an advance ticket and a super off peak return south of london is usually minimal and is often more than offset by the ability to get a cheaper advance tickets north of london as you will not be limited to trains which have through availability. With the network card everybody gets a discount on the flexible ticket.
Occasionally you will get a cheaper through advance ticket but not often.

DelW · 3 Feb 2020

221129 said:
Which is all well and good until your train into London is late and you miss your connection and have to buy new walk up tickets..

There are no advance fares available on my route from Waterloo to home, so if I split in London, the ticket on that sector has to be a walk-up fare anyway. That's why it can be more expensive* but as paul1609 rightly says, the difference is often small and can go either way.
(* before taking beer saving into account)

yorkie · 3 Feb 2020

221129 said:
Not sure where the grey area is? They have Booked train only tickets with 2 Booked trains. They need to travel on their Booker trains.

It is a grey area; where a ticket states "TOC & Connections", travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains.

It is only in recent years that many connecting trains have become quasi-reserveable, in that you cannot actually reserve a seat, but they have "counted place" reservations, and therefore these "TOC & Connections" fares end up with an unwanted and unwarranted reservation for a relatively short distance connecting leg.

The counted place reservation system for local connections has had unintended consequences; there was clearly never any intention to require a passenger to wait at a station like Liverpool Street for a connecting service to finish their long distance journey just because the cross-London transfer times are incredibly generous.

In practise, I doubt any Abellio Greater Anglia Guard or RPI is going to actually mind a customer using an "appropriate" connecting service that is not the one the customer has been unwittingly issued a reservation for; most staff in such a position are going to take a pragmatic view and see the bigger picture.

I have never been refused travel on a train that is clearly an appropriate service by any reasonable definition of the word.

Furthermore, I know it is the policy of TPE to allow travel on appropriate services other than the reserved service to connect with longer distance operators for longer journeys e.g. Garforth to London King's Cross etc.

Some jobs require pragmatism; some don't. Some people are suited to such jobs and some aren't. In my experience most Train Managers are pragmatic.

221129 said:
Which is all well and good until your train into London is late and you miss your connection and have to buy new walk up tickets..

Presumably you are referring to the specific scenario of a passenger booking a combination of Advance tickets for trains that, together, do not form a valid itinerary due to the timings not meeting the minimum interchange time.

221129 · 4 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
Presumably you are referring to the specific scenario of a passenger booking a combination of Advance tickets for trains that, together, do not form a valid itinerary due to the timings not meeting the minimum interchange time.

Correct

Talent · 7 Feb 2020

I just collected the tickets. I somehow hoped that the ticket stated "& connections" or something like this.

Nope, the 11:02 to Colchester is printed on the ticket. So I'm stuck to a specific train but have no reservation...

221129 · 7 Feb 2020

Talent said:
I just collected the tickets. I somehow hoped that the ticket stated "& connections" or something like this.

Nope, the 11:02 to Colchester is printed on the ticket. So I'm stuck to a specific train but have no reservation...

You have a reservation, just not a booked seat.

Talent · 7 Feb 2020

OK, I have a reservation but not a booked seat...

Trackman · 8 Feb 2020

JBuchananGB said:
If the OP had booked to somewhere like Shenfield, or even Marks Tey, i.e. somewhere served by non reservable trains, then the Advance would probably have been issued as Avanti & connections, meaning any suitable train from Liverpool Street, but because the train to Colchester is the “intercity” service to Norwich, it is reservable, which is why the ticket stipulates the specific train.

That's the way I see it.
The Colchester part is an advance quota reservation so to speak.

Olympian · 8 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
As your connection is a "booked" train i.e. train printed on the ticket even thought it is a "counted place" rather then an actual seat, your ticket is only valid on that train. If you are early you have to wait for your booked train I'm afraid. The only exception to this is if your earlier train is delay/cancelled or if the train with the counted place is cancelled.

Agreed, and surely the whole point of Advance tickets has always been that you agree to a specific itinerary in return for paying less than you would have for a flexible ticket so perhaps it's about time that every train on an Advance ticket itinerary is treated as bookable, and a reservation (with or without seat) printed for it, to avoid confusion, grey areas, and these types of enquiries trying to find a way around sticking to the itinerary that was selected and agreed to at the point of purchase.

BUT i do think there should be more options given as standard in the booking process so that you can better tailor your chosen itinerary to match your requirements but you still then have to stick to it.

JonathanH · 8 Feb 2020

Olympian said:
perhaps it's about time that every train on an Advance ticket itinerary is treated as bookable, and a reservation (with or without seat) printed for it, to avoid confusion, grey areas, and these types of enquiries trying to find a way around sticking to the itinerary that was selected and agreed to at the point of purchase.

While you are probably right, the idea might run into some difficulty if the quota isn't loaded for some trivial connection at the end of the journey that means a through advance ticket can't be booked.

There is presumably some work needed to put a specific quota on every train.

I am totally on board with the idea that the purchaser of an advance ticket should check the full itinerary before they complete their purchase.

Olympian · 8 Feb 2020

JonathanH said:
While you are probably right, the idea might run into some difficulty if the quota isn't loaded for some trivial connection at the end of the journey that means a through advance ticket can't be booked.

There is presumably some work needed to put a specific quota on every train.

I am totally on board with the idea that the purchaser of an advance ticket should check the full itinerary before they complete their purchase.

Maybe they don’t need a quota - they don’t have one now - but just be able to be “reserved”.

JonathanH · 8 Feb 2020

Olympian said:
Maybe they don’t need a quota - they don’t have one now - but just be able to be “reserved”.

I don't think that is how the reservation system is set up.

Olympian · 8 Feb 2020

JonathanH said:
I don't think that is how the reservation system is set up.

In that case they could maybe have an unlimited quota so can always be booked as part of Advance ticket itineraries.

Advance tickets and connecting trains

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