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Southern to MK Central

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leytongabriel

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All this has set me idly wondering if it would be physically possible to put in a platform on the main line again at Willesden Jct so these trains and the Tring terminators could connect with the Overground. Or have the tracks been slewed in such a way now that there is no space?
 
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JonathanH

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Although I expect there may currently be insufficient paths south of East Croydon

Given there is no work planned to improve the lines south of Croydon it is likely to remain that way.

It isn't just that though - the other problem is that the train has to remain on the slows between Clapham Junction and East Croydon and call at the stations so it isn't really competitive as a through service to Gatwick or Three Bridges. The people at stations on the lines via Redhill would have something to say as well if it ran non stop on the slow lines south of Croydon.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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All this has set me idly wondering if it would be physically possible to put in a platform on the main line again at Willesden Jct so these trains and the Tring terminators could connect with the Overground. Or have the tracks been slewed in such a way now that there is no space?

Interesting point. :D
 

Bald Rick

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Anyway, it is more likely that the recollections of locomotive hauled services from the WCML to the WLL which is what the divergence of the thread is about can be explained here.

http://www.1s76.com/

At various points in time, the inter-regional services between the North and Brighton / Kent Coast ran via the WCML rather than Reading.

Indeed - I remember going with my Dad on a Clapham to MK trip on the first ever ‘Network Day’ back in ‘86. Loco change at Mitre Bridge.
 

DelW

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This route also provides an important role for passengers who can't or won't cope with a cross London transfer.
I have an elderly cousin who regularly uses it to travel between her home in Hemel Hempstead and holiday resorts on the south coast. She would never contemplate handling luggage on and off the tube or London buses, so without it, she'd either switch to coaches or stay at home.
 

RUFJAN15

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These were extensions of the North Downs services to Reading to Oxford mainly, some Banbury. Now there is a dive-under at Reading, these are less conflicting moves, although frequency is today far higher at all points.
I disagree. The description exactly matches the stock used for the 'Kenny Belle' (Clapham - Olympia) shuttle at various times over the years. A Google search throws up various references to this odd peak-hour only service, but there is a good 'London Reconnections' article at https://www.londonreconnections.com...ous-case-of-the-clapham-junction-ghost-train/ .
 

30907

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DarloRich

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It us a useful service that offers a good commuter service into mk from the intermediate wcml stations.

It also offers a useful non London connection between the wcml south and the southern/south western network.

It is also pretty reliable these days. I find it a real positive.

I am sure @Bletchleyite would comment
 

Bletchleyite

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Yep, I've used it lots over the years. In its present form (8 car all day and most services through) it is probably at its most useful though 2tph would be nice post-HS2. I've used it to get to west London for work and for connections at Clapham Junction, and I've even done nearly the full run (Bletchley-East Croydon) for work purposes a couple of times a week for a few months. Because the connections were typically poor, it has much more value running onto the WCML than it did as a Watford shuttle - it's not quite the same at the other end because Clapham provides excellent connections. The rolling stock is nice and it's reliable these days.

The only situation I'd suggest it'd be sensible to get rid of it would be if Willesden Junction was to get WCML platforms with all or most LNR services calling. I don't however see this as likely.
 

gaillark

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In the mid-late 80s there were one or two daily Brighton-Olympia-West Coast Main Line-Birmingham/Manchester type services (think with engine changes at Mitre Bridge Jn). These were a precursor to the Brighton XC services via Reading.

I remember travelling on that service a few times.

There is an excellent website www.1S76.com which tells you everything about the Brighton through IC services that existed via Kensington Olympia.
BR restarted local services over the WLL in its dying days then transferring operations to the shadow TOC North London Railways running between Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction. The line was not electrified initially. third rail electriication to the former Eurostar depot at North Pole helped the development of service that was planned to extend also to Watford Junction. first generation DMU's was the rolling stock of the day. Connex South Central then launched its direct Gatwick to Rugby service using 319 units. This service was also marketed by Virgin Trains for its easy cross platform interchange in addition to its own XC service. DMU operation continued to Willesden junction on the shuttles until further infill works were completed and sufficient 313 units became available.

Personally feel that this route is still under developed and has poor management as it always the first to get cancelled once anything goes wrong on the route. I suspect if the route was being operated by BR today we would have seen more management focus by means of a dedicated route manager in providing a reliable service with crews from both Selhurst and Bletchley signing the route. That's the drawback of one franchise operator in having to run 60 miles from its train crew depot. DfT should trial cross TOC working as this route would really benefit from such a scheme. ScotRail/Northern do so in a limited capacity with through running from Glasgow to Newcastle via Dumfries using ScotRail trains manned by Northern between Carlisle and Newcastle.

It could be done on WLL!
 

ChiefPlanner

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Post HS2 - the options for South of the River , connectivity with more main line trains at Watford Junction (without going into Zone 1 and the tube schlepp to Euston) would be of immense value I reckon.

When Watford had more genuine I/C calls pre 2004 , it was noticeable that some savvy individuals had worked this out. Basically a very succesfull service overall , and one I suggested as long ago as about 1986 as an Eaast Croydon to Watford using a 33/1 + 4 TC , only to be knocked back by what I can only assume as a non future NSE "manager"....
 

cle

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I disagree. The description exactly matches the stock used for the 'Kenny Belle' (Clapham - Olympia) shuttle at various times over the years. A Google search throws up various references to this odd peak-hour only service, but there is a good 'London Reconnections' article at https://www.londonreconnections.com...ous-case-of-the-clapham-junction-ghost-train/ .
The poster mentioned services from Gatwick to Banbury, which were the ones I was referring to. Nothing to disagree with.

All this has set me idly wondering if it would be physically possible to put in a platform on the main line again at Willesden Jct so these trains and the Tring terminators could connect with the Overground. Or have the tracks been slewed in such a way now that there is no space?

Issue here is that the Tring stoppers run on the regular WCML Slows and the Southern runs on different lines to the west of the Fasts. So you’d need two sets of platforms. For resilience, you might want platforms on the Fasts too, and for the future post-HS2.

So that has you building 3 islands/pairs of sides, of 8-12 car length, all with lifts and reasonable facilities - or a nice waiting facility above all of them (like at Clapham Junction for instead) if you kept the platforms basic.

And connectivity to the high and low levels, and the various exits.

Now you see why doing these additions at Willesden is a much bigger project than it first appears. And all for 2tph Tring/Euston and 1-2tph MKC/East Croydon - as it stands today.

It would require a big bang commitment to many more trains calling there. Only likely if a lot of the light industry fully went and housing was build, but as with Car Giant/QPR, all seems to be being scaled back.
 
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I don’t think BR would have run the service better. One need only look at how run down it was when they ran it!
 

Belperpete

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I don’t think BR would have run the service better. One need only look at how run down it was when they ran it!
As has been pointed out previously, demand only really took off with the opening of the Westfield centre.
 

philthetube

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Memory tells me, and I may be totally wrong, that there was no passenger service Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction until around 1990, I am basing this on remembering seeing a poster about the introduction of this service using 2 car DMU's perhaps someone can confirm or deny.

I also suspect that the reason for trains not terminating at Watford Junction is at least partly to avoid them having to cross the flat junction to platform 10 to reverse, or tip out on a main line platform.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Memory tells me, and I may be totally wrong, that there was no passenger service Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction until around 1990, I am basing this on remembering seeing a poster about the introduction of this service using 2 car DMU's perhaps someone can confirm or deny.

I also suspect that the reason for trains not terminating at Watford Junction is at least partly to avoid them having to cross the flat junction to platform 10 to reverse, or tip out on a main line platform.

There are obviously differences between the DMU then 313 Willesden to Clapham from about 1992 , which was a brave initiative on the part of what was Network North / later North London lines as the class 117 availability was a bit challenging to say the least - it had reasonable loadings from the start , though until Clapham Junction was properly gated it is debatable as how many people actually paid a fare. By some unheard of miracle - the electrification of the West London line was completed about 2 weeks early , so 313 units were speedily put on , which massively helped reliability and gave a 50% capacity increase at a stroke.

The Connex operated WLL service was a bit of a mix at first , with some terminations at Watford to begin with - not an easy move as the crossing move over to the bay at platform 10 effectively locked up the (then) slow lines as there were lengthy track circuit sections on the up slow towards Bushey. Connex were very keen on the service , and I recall the crews enjoyed the work.
 

cle

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I remember the bouncy rides on the 117 - and it was quick in those days before even West Brompton had opened and the changeover! There was a ticket inspector on most services.

I think Watford is better re signalling now. And as almost everything calls at platform 9, the move isn't as horrible as it might be. But it's not ideal. P10 should be a through platform, and then P9 would be a perfect place to turn this (or to overtake, bidi).
 

DarloRich

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Yep, I've used it lots over the years. In its present form (8 car all day and most services through) it is probably at its most useful though 2tph would be nice post-HS2. I've used it to get to west London for work and for connections at Clapham Junction, and I've even done nearly the full run (Bletchley-East Croydon) for work purposes a couple of times a week for a few months. Because the connections were typically poor, it has much more value running onto the WCML than it did as a Watford shuttle - it's not quite the same at the other end because Clapham provides excellent connections. The rolling stock is nice and it's reliable these days.

The only situation I'd suggest it'd be sensible to get rid of it would be if Willesden Junction was to get WCML platforms with all or most LNR services calling. I don't however see this as likely.

Agreed entirely. A very useful service. Been rock solid recently to which is a real bonus considering the shambles that is LNWR at times!
 

Merle Haggard

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I caught the Connex service from Northampton (only as far as Clapham J) on the first day, and my recollection was that originally it originated at Northampton, not Rugby - but I'm far from sure. Certainly the crew were very friendly towards passengers, a bit of a novelty for us.
The aim of Connex was, I was told by colleagues at the time, to reach Birmingham International, and that the reason was ORCATS-raiding more than service providing.
One thing the new service did require was route clearance of the literal sort. Because the 319s (for obvious reasons) had collector shoes, they were vulnerable to damage from rails, ballast etc left on sleeper ends, and the civil engineers had to put some time into checking this. Even so, later on a Rugby starter was sent old line because of a problem on the new line, and had its shoes removed by a ballast shoulder somewhere near Weedon. I think.
There was also a plan for a Great Eastern service to Northampton via Canonbury but this was probably just kite-flying, and possibly also motivated by ORCATS.
 

ah-media

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All this has set me idly wondering if it would be physically possible to put in a platform on the main line again at Willesden Jct so these trains and the Tring terminators could connect with the Overground. Or have the tracks been slewed in such a way now that there is no space?
There are of course platforms at Queens Park although this is not really a workable solution
 
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It’s not workable because Queen’s Park does not connect with the North London or West London lines. All you’d get is the Bakerloo line to about Baker St (for anything beyond it would be quicker to stay on the train to Euston) plus Kilburn High Road and the quiet station that is South Hampstead.
 

Bald Rick

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I caught the Connex service from Northampton (only as far as Clapham J) on the first day, and my recollection was that originally it originated at Northampton, not Rugby - but I'm far from sure. Certainly the crew were very friendly towards passengers, a bit of a novelty for us.
The aim of Connex was, I was told by colleagues at the time, to reach Birmingham International, and that the reason was ORCATS-raiding more than service providing.
One thing the new service did require was route clearance of the literal sort. Because the 319s (for obvious reasons) had collector shoes, they were vulnerable to damage from rails, ballast etc left on sleeper ends, and the civil engineers had to put some time into checking this. Even so, later on a Rugby starter was sent old line because of a problem on the new line, and had its shoes removed by a ballast shoulder somewhere near Weedon. I think.
There was also a plan for a Great Eastern service to Northampton via Canonbury but this was probably just kite-flying, and possibly also motivated by ORCATS.

Yep, a 319 lost its shoes on day 1 IIRC. But of course this wasn’t realised until it pitched up at Mitre bridge.

I also recall that the original plan was to get to Birmingham. And it was very much an ORCATs raid.
 

cle

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It’s not workable because Queen’s Park does not connect with the North London or West London lines. All you’d get is the Bakerloo line to about Baker St (for anything beyond it would be quicker to stay on the train to Euston) plus Kilburn High Road and the quiet station that is South Hampstead.
For the few years Queens Park was served by the Slows, it was pretty popular. It's the busiest Bakerloo station north of Paddington, and a great place to connect onto sometimes empty Bakerloo trains, at a much higher frequency than north of it.

I would argue that versus Euston, it is quicker to Piccadilly Circus also, and Lambeth/Elephant. Oxford Circus and Charing Cross/Embankment/Waterloo are about the same, if you include the transfer at Euston.

Add in the likelihood of a seat at Queens Park (vs the tube at Euston!), and I think it becomes more compelling. Crossrail at Paddington adds more options too - I think it could have a mini-Vauxhall/Finsbury Park type role one day.
 

ChiefPlanner

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For the few years Queens Park was served by the Slows, it was pretty popular. It's the busiest Bakerloo station north of Paddington, and a great place to connect onto sometimes empty Bakerloo trains, at a much higher frequency than north of it.

I would argue that versus Euston, it is quicker to Piccadilly Circus also, and Lambeth/Elephant. Oxford Circus and Charing Cross/Embankment/Waterloo are about the same, if you include the transfer at Euston.

Add in the likelihood of a seat at Queens Park (vs the tube at Euston!), and I think it becomes more compelling. Crossrail at Paddington adds more options too - I think it could have a mini-Vauxhall/Finsbury Park type role one day.

I disagree (remember I was the Ops Manager for NLR at the time) - there was a timetable plan I inherited which reduced the DC service to every 30 mins off peak - and there was a MK / Watford AC off peak service every 30 mins which called from WFJ at Bushey / Harrow / Wembley Central / Queens Park and Euston.

Queens Park rarely produced more than half a dozen passengers , and there were odd things to do with Travelcard allocations. (in favour of LT) , plus too many drivers "forgot" to call at Queens Park !. It was a blessing to get rid of this daft idea , put the DC back to all all day 20 min service , add half hourly calls at Bushey all do (a huge success) , and generally beef up the AC services with some peak bounce backs , and some extra Harrow calls - which gave most people a better service all round.

We looked hard at Willesden Jct calls at new platforms and it was kicked into touch , especially with the PUG2 deal which threatened to put everything onto the slow lines (for a while) - bar those planned 140 mph trains.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Yep, a 319 lost its shoes on day 1 IIRC. But of course this wasn’t realised until it pitched up at Mitre bridge.

I also recall that the original plan was to get to Birmingham. And it was very much an ORCATs raid.

The first down 319 on the AC lines on Monday mornings tended to level off the ballast shoulders , had there been work over the weekend. A sort of electric ballast plough. Shoes used to be knocked off of course. Expensive.

We had a 6 car 313 ECS after the peak to BY depot , which would otherwise have lost it's shoes.
 

ChiefPlanner

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I caught the Connex service from Northampton (only as far as Clapham J) on the first day, and my recollection was that originally it originated at Northampton, not Rugby - but I'm far from sure. Certainly the crew were very friendly towards passengers, a bit of a novelty for us.
The aim of Connex was, I was told by colleagues at the time, to reach Birmingham International, and that the reason was ORCATS-raiding more than service providing.
One thing the new service did require was route clearance of the literal sort. Because the 319s (for obvious reasons) had collector shoes, they were vulnerable to damage from rails, ballast etc left on sleeper ends, and the civil engineers had to put some time into checking this. Even so, later on a Rugby starter was sent old line because of a problem on the new line, and had its shoes removed by a ballast shoulder somewhere near Weedon. I think.
There was also a plan for a Great Eastern service to Northampton via Canonbury but this was probably just kite-flying, and possibly also motivated by ORCATS.


There was a "cunning plan" by Anglia (ever inventive) for an Ipswich - Milton Keynes service via the North London line , impossible due to the subsequent changes by NLR to run off peak fast Northamptons (and half hourly Birminghams) and consequential changes to the AC locals for most of the day which used the then bay platforms at MK for turn round time. (Pre-remodelling of course) - there were also some rumours about a Stansted to MK , which of course came to zero. I would have to think about the routing of that.

NLR had franchise obligations for a Watford - Gatwick - impossible due to (a) no stock - 313's out of gauge - but 165/0 were considered at a King's ransom (b) Slow line paths / awful padding needed south of the river. Idea quietly dropped for the AC lines package suggested elsewhere.

NLR then had an idea of an AC service to Liverpool St via the NLL and Navarino Curve - again "too difficult" despite best endeavours , pathing and split markets , plus stock issues . In a moment of madness , 312's off Central Trains were considered for a micro-second.

Funny how in the heady days of early franchising - a bit of (repressed) lateral thinking came about.
 
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