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ENCTS and ‘split ticketing’ just before 0930

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Bletchleyite

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I think this might come down to the fact that the reason "split ticketing" is allowed on the railway is that BR lost a legal case on the matter a while ago.

Bus companies didn't lose such a case, so they are, until one comes about, free to put different rules in place as a bus isn't a train.
 
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Simon75

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Of course, you could confine your bus travels to London or Cornwall (but nowhere in the vast expanses between) and be fancy free twenty four hours a day, although you'd be hard pressed to find buses anywhere in Cornwall at 3 a.m. :lol:
By London do you mean TFL buses?
if say you got TFL bus 142 from Watford to Brent Cross could you use a pass before 9.30 am?
 

transmanche

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if say you got TFL bus 142 from Watford to Brent Cross could you use a pass before 9.30 am?
Yes. There are no time restrictions for using ENCTS passes on TfL buses. (And not just London Freedom Passes, but any ENCTS pass.)

(Herts CC ENCTS passholders don't have any time restrictions on the use of their passes either. So a Herts CC ENCTS passholder could catch any bus at Watford before 09:30, not just Tfl ones.)
 
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NorthOxonian

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Yes. There are no time restrictions for using ENCTS passes on TfL buses. (And not just London Freedom Passes, but any ENCTS pass.)

(Herts CC ENCTS passholders don't have any time restrictions on the use of their passes either. So a Herts CC ENCTS passholder could catch any bus at Watford before 09:30, not just Tfl ones.)

Which rules apply to the handful of non-TfL services which cover significant ground in London? A service like the 715, for example, which does provide the bulk of the connections between the riverside areas of Surbiton and Kingston town centre.
 

Robertj21a

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Which rules apply to the handful of non-TfL services which cover significant ground in London? A service like the 715, for example, which does provide the bulk of the connections between the riverside areas of Surbiton and Kingston town centre.

As far as I'm aware, it's simply defined as to whether or not it is a route operated by TfL.
 

richard13

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Which rules apply to the handful of non-TfL services which cover significant ground in London? A service like the 715, for example, which does provide the bulk of the connections between the riverside areas of Surbiton and Kingston town centre.

The 715 is a Stagecoach Guildford service supported by SurreyCC. ENCTS passes are as for Surrey 09:30 - 23:00 M-F. For all non-TfL services the relevant county rules apply even within London. Correspondingly all TfL services outside London use the TfL rules. Fortunately TfL routes use red buses and the rest don't, because in places like Epsom in Surrey it can get quite confusing with 166, 293, 406, 418, 467, 470 all TfL routes with cheap fares and the rest Surrey routes.
 

NorthOxonian

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The 715 is a Stagecoach Guildford service supported by SurreyCC. ENCTS passes are as for Surrey 09:30 - 23:00 M-F. For all non-TfL services the relevant county rules apply even within London. Correspondingly all TfL services outside London use the TfL rules. Fortunately TfL routes use red buses and the rest don't, because in places like Epsom in Surrey it can get quite confusing with 166, 293, 406, 418, 467, 470 all TfL routes with cheap fares and the rest Surrey routes.

It's rather interesting that quite a lot of stops end up existing in Schrödinger's County - London for some buses but not London for others! Though I wish I had known that the 715 was all classed as Surrey, since a couple of months ago, I planned to buy a Discovery day ticket, but then got worried that it was only valid in Surrey (and Kent/Sussex, but not London). Ended up walking all the way from Kingston to the start of Thames Ditton (where the route enters Surrey), just to make sure I was okay!
 

Busaholic

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It's rather interesting that quite a lot of stops end up existing in Schrödinger's County - London for some buses but not London for others! Though I wish I had known that the 715 was all classed as Surrey, since a couple of months ago, I planned to buy a Discovery day ticket, but then got worried that it was only valid in Surrey (and Kent/Sussex, but not London). Ended up walking all the way from Kingston to the start of Thames Ditton (where the route enters Surrey), just to make sure I was okay!
Rule of thumb (apart from the TfL roundel sticker on the front of the bus); if it has an Oyster reader, it's a London bus and if it doesn't, it's not a London bus.
 

175mph

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Of course, you could confine your bus travels to London or Cornwall (but nowhere in the vast expanses between) and be fancy free twenty four hours a day, although you'd be hard pressed to find buses anywhere in Cornwall at 3 a.m. :lol:
North Lincolnshire pass holders and Hull pass holders also get that luxury within their respective areas. ;)
 

Tom B

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London buses before 0930 often have a reasonable number of OAPs who are on board during the rush hour - in some cases, I'm not quite sure why Doris and Ethel need to go down to Morrisons at 8am to pick up their groceries, if I were ever retired I'd far prefer to go at a dead quiet time - and for those aged 60-67, the passes give free travel to/from work!
 

PeterC

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Rule of thumb (apart from the TfL roundel sticker on the front of the bus); if it has an Oyster reader, it's a London bus and if it doesn't, it's not a London bus.
Not a recent issue but I have known companies with London franchises in the past use London branded and Oyster fitted vehicles on non TfL routes.
 

Dai Corner

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What does a driver do if he's got Twirlies holding tickets to the magic 9.30 stop when he reaches it and they don't get off or offer to scan their passes?
 

Eyersey468

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What does a driver do if he's got Twirlies holding tickets to the magic 9.30 stop when he reaches it and they don't get off or offer to scan their passes?
What I used to do when I was on local bus was enter them manually on the machine
 

Busaholic

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Not a recent issue but I have known companies with London franchises in the past use London branded and Oyster fitted vehicles on non TfL routes.
I've heard of that too, but the Oyster reader wouldn't be working, of course and SHOULD be covered up to avoid confusion.
 

Tom B

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I've heard of that too, but the Oyster reader wouldn't be working, of course and SHOULD be covered up to avoid confusion.

Metronet do this on the 84 service - which no longer accepts Oyster cards, yet can be operated by a vehicle displaying the London branding and with an Oyster reader.
 

Llandudno

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Why do we over complicate things!

should be the same policy throughout England.
Free bus/tram travel after 0930 Monday to Friday (until 2359)
Free bus/tram travel all day Sat-Sun

Flat fare of £2 for any Pass holder before 0930 (gets round split ticket issue)

No concessionary rail travel, give all seniors a free Senior Railcard.

Easy and fair to ALL seniors in England!
 

Simon75

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First Potteries charge £2 on Stoke on Trent before 9.30
Staffordshire county council OAP now only after 9.30, but disabled still free 24/7
 

markymark2000

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Why do we over complicate things!

should be the same policy throughout England.
Free bus/tram travel after 0930 Monday to Friday (until 2359)
Free bus/tram travel all day Sat-Sun

Flat fare of £2 for any Pass holder before 0930 (gets round split ticket issue)

No concessionary rail travel, give all seniors a free Senior Railcard.

Easy and fair to ALL seniors in England!
But what if they board the bus at 09:20 and the bus fare to the 09:30 stop is only £1.60, can they split the ticket then so it's cheaper ;)

Joking aside, there does need to be a simpler policy. I think the bare minimum currently is 09:30 until 23:00 Mon-Fri and then all day Saturday and Sunday. The majority of councils stretch this to 'until last bus' because there isn't much difference. Earlier routes are normally done by county councils or PTEs because they get a bit more money compared to single tier unitary councils.
Tram travel should be included in concessionary passes under the same rules but that would be too easy and you can't play political football with that (compared to offering it for local concessionary passes and sometimes charging a pass addon fee)

Concessionary Railcard I do agree with some slight payment. Charge the £10 per year for the train 'addon' but that is valid on every train (after 09:30 Mon-Fri and all day Sat/Sun). The Railcard is only valid with your normal concessionary pass and have some numbers which must match between the passes.
The £10 addon might not be much but it does put money back into the network. Even if the £10 covers the admin fees, it is £10 less which the taxpayer subsidises.
 

Eyersey468

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Why do we over complicate things!

should be the same policy throughout England.
Free bus/tram travel after 0930 Monday to Friday (until 2359)
Free bus/tram travel all day Sat-Sun

Flat fare of £2 for any Pass holder before 0930 (gets round split ticket issue)

No concessionary rail travel, give all seniors a free Senior Railcard.

Easy and fair to ALL seniors in England!
I've always felt it should have been one set of times throughout the country, in Hull a Hull pass can be used before 0930 but not any others, of course its the driver that gets it in the neck when someone with an East Riding or whatever pass gets on at 0915 and can't use it when someone with a Hull pass has got on just before them.
 

Robertj21a

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I've always felt it should have been one set of times throughout the country, in Hull a Hull pass can be used before 0930 but not any others, of course its the driver that gets it in the neck when someone with an East Riding or whatever pass gets on at 0915 and can't use it when someone with a Hull pass has got on just before them.

Well, it is one set of times across the country (England at least) - 09.30 to 23.00 Mon-Fri, no other time restrictions. Any variations are local initiatives, funded locally
 

Eyersey468

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Well, it is one set of times across the country (England at least) - 09.30 to 23.00 Mon-Fri, no other time restrictions. Any variations are local initiatives, funded locally
Fair enough I worded it badly, yes there is one national time but they spoilt it by allowing local discretion, which each council has their own ideas about what times the passes should be valid
 

duncombec

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At the other end of the fare-paying spectrum (especially in regard to "just let them travel", or "faff around until the time ticks over" comments), what about if the person was a child (or anyone of a younger age where there is a cheaper fare after a certain time). Would there be any objections if a group of 4 or 5 'kids' paid an adult fare for so far, then trooped down the front of the bus to pay for the rest of their journey at half fare?

How about fare-paying adults wanting day tickets? Or returns?

If we are going to have one 'rule' for one group of people, surely the same should apply to everybody? Why not add a few extra minutes into the timetable of the first journey after 09:30 so everybody can travel for cheaper? You get the bus before the time, you pay the fare for the time you board. If you want the cheaper fare, you go after the time.
 

175mph

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I've always felt it should have been one set of times throughout the country, in Hull a Hull pass can be used before 0930 but not any others, of course its the driver that gets it in the neck when someone with an East Riding or whatever pass gets on at 0915 and can't use it when someone with a Hull pass has got on just before them.
Two years ago, one early morning, I got on a 350 from Hull back to Scunthorpe, and there was somebody else who was also heading for Scunthorpe who tried to use their North Lincolnshire issued concessionary pass, which of course didn't work, but the driver let them sit down without paying, provided that as soon as we reached the first stop over the Humber Bridge in Barton, they scan their pass on the ticket machine, (which they did).
 

jumble

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my thoughts as well, don't let go of the bus when you get off though.

The problem I see from the operators view is that all passengers split ticketing, and there could be quite a few on infrequent services, would have to go to the front of the bus to use their passes at the same time and this could cause delays, or loss of revenue if not done.


What happens next if the OP buys a ticket to the post 09.30 stop and then simply walks up to the machine and simply touches in ENTCS pass without comment ?
The driver may say
When you complete the journey for which you have paid or the validity of your pass or other relevant documentation expires, you must leave the bus or pay a fresh fare to your intended destination
and the OP may say my now valid pass is equivalent to paying a fresh fare and you will get the revenue as I have touched in and you are not allowed to claim double bubble .
There is less disruption than if the OP steps off the bus and straight back on so I dont understand the problem
 

arbeia

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Rules are rules, but when I was a Supervisor/Inspector I told drivers what I had been told years before. "Just imagine the publicity and headlines in the local paper." it just was not worth it. So always give the customer the benefit of the doubt.
 
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Why not add a few extra minutes into the timetable of the first journey after 09:30 so everybody can travel for cheaper? You get the bus before the time, you pay the fare for the time you board. If you want the cheaper fare, you go after the time.
Because the majority of pensioners are not trying to get on a service that starts just before 09 30, the start of the run could be way before that.

As arbeia said, the driver is on a hiding to nothing, if the customer complains the company will always say the driver is in the wrong.

As for children, they can do what the **** they like as far as I am concerned, effectively they rule the roost.
 

duncombec

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Because the majority of pensioners are not trying to get on a service that starts just before 09 30, the start of the run could be way before that.

As arbeia said, the driver is on a hiding to nothing, if the customer complains the company will always say the driver is in the wrong.

As for children, they can do what the **** they like as far as I am concerned, effectively they rule the roost.

Then read my comment to say "Why not add a few extra minutes into the timetable of the first journey after 09:30 on the relevant journey at each major timing point so everybody...."

I'm obviously being facetious, but it shouldn't be just Brenda and Gladys who this applies to, but every time-specific fare condition. If you make an exception for one group, you make it for everybody.
 
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