XCTurbostar
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Has there been any reports on whether First Group and the DfT have agreed terms for the Great Western Franchise to be extended beyond April 2020?
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Great Western Franchise Extension 2020 to?
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Nicholas Lewis
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Well i suspect the Operator of Last Resort is going to have its hands tied up elsewhere! so my money is on announcement of further direct award to suit the Dept of Transport spin doctors especially as GWR are doing a reasonable job currently
Clarence Yard
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Negotiations between FG and DfT on “DA3” ongoing. Can’t say any more than that at the moment but a conclusion isn’t far off.
pdeaves
Established Member
Some public info (sorry, I didn't note the source) when it was first decided to try for a DA rather than refranchise had that the intention would be to run to 31 March 2022 with an option to extend to 31 March 2024. Those deeply involved in negotiations will know at this stage whether those dates will percolate through to the final agreement.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
First Great Western Ltd made a profit of £53.9m in year to 31/3/19 and paid its parent First Group £50m which is £10m more than previous year so i wonder if Dept of Transport will just roll over the current arrangements for another 2-4 years? Probably yes for expediency and also they know what pain they are in FTPE and FSWR and they really cant fall back on OLR for all franchises so need to keep them on board until Williams review and legislation change can be enacted.
pdeaves
Established Member
In practice that cannot happen. The current arrangements could well include things like 'CCTV at stations A, B and C by 31 March 2020' [1]. If that has been achieved (as should be the case!) there is no sense in rolling it over, so there has to be a new bunch of things to agree in a contract.
[1] just one 'type of thing' example I plucked out of the air. There could be any number of projects/schemes of varying importance and value.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
To clarify i mean roll over the management contract arrangements or whatever governs the fee that First Group earn for running the contract ie will D of T continue to allow the largess to carry on or try and negotiate it down. I'm sure they've had consultants working on the other elements you rightly point out will need amending although given this potential extension was provided for in the last extension im pretty sure GWR will have been asked there view.
Clarence Yard
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Legally, it has to be a new contract. New terms.
Class 170101
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Does the shenigans on SWR have any nearing whether DfT have confidence or not in First Group regards GWR?
Clarence Yard
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No. No bearing on the GWR DA whatsoever.
There is no problem with how the DfT regard FG in running GWR. It will be whether any proposed deal is acceptable to the Treasury.
There is no problem with how the DfT regard FG in running GWR. It will be whether any proposed deal is acceptable to the Treasury.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
ORR in there letter https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...ormance-letter-to-network-rail-2020-01-21.pdf to NR over passenger train performance were actually very complimentary about performance in Wales & Western route
which must lend weight to the the case for at least exercising a two year extension of the DA whilst they have one good performing area.
RPI
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Whilst there are massive issues on both of these franchises FG have yet to default on any premium payments and most things that are late so far are down to suppliers and NR.
CptCharlee
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Ideally I would like to have a new franchise no direct awards. The whole franchise needs a longer term vision. With commitments to bring improvements.
Wonder if a new DA will have clauses to say following the Williams Review the DfT could end it early etc
I do wonder if any changes would occur with a new DA.
Wonder if a new DA will have clauses to say following the Williams Review the DfT could end it early etc
I do wonder if any changes would occur with a new DA.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Given the Sunday Times is running a piece on Northern going over to OLR this week they will want a DA to kick this one into the long grass. FGWR have introduced the new trains and timetable change and they pretty well do what they say they will unlike there sister FTPE
Can we please stay on the topic of Great Western Franchise Extension 2020.
If anyone wishes to post anything else, please create a new thread (or use an existing one if there isn't one already). Any ideas/suggestions belong in Speculative Ideas.
Thank you.
If anyone wishes to post anything else, please create a new thread (or use an existing one if there isn't one already). Any ideas/suggestions belong in Speculative Ideas.
Thank you.
Trainfan061193
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I’m surprised they still haven’t announced what will happen after next month but my money is on GWR getting an extension.
CptCharlee
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Be interesting to see if Okehampton is mentioned in a new DA it's gone very quiet recently.
Clarence Yard
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DfT internal approvals seem to take up a lot of time these days. Don't expect any news on DA3 until later this month/early March.
coppercapped
Established Member
That's the problem with political entities - their clocks tick to a different time from those of us who live (or - now being retired - lived!) in a commercial world.
In the latter, time is money.
In the former, decisions emerge (they don't seem to be made...
) in the fullness of time depending on the political calendar - elections, spending reviews, budget statements, autumn statements, ministers' speeches, at what point the 'political narrative' on any given topic has reached, and so on and so forth. The timing of any announcement must not embarrass the current minister. The costs of delay and prevarication are not carried by the political entities...They have been in prolonged negotiations. Sign off is still 2+ weeks away.
Isn't it amazing what can be achieved by replacing a fleet of 40yr old slam door diesel trains with electrics and then maintaining the old timetable for 2 years afterwards.
Nicholas Lewis
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Thats been and gone i suspect First are being aggressive in pricing given the positive performance and the fact that OLR arent really in a position to pick this up with Northern fully occupying there limited resources
Clarence Yard
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Nothing of the sort. Please see my post of 4th February - it’s the usual rush and chaos of internal approvals on both sides together with getting all the paperwork (such as new or extended leases) together.
My estimate of late Feb/early March has slipped by a week or so but it is (at today) still on course for sometime in mid March.
My estimate of late Feb/early March has slipped by a week or so but it is (at today) still on course for sometime in mid March.
Brissle Girl
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Let’s hope that when it’s announced it has greater passenger benefits than the one year extension to XC has resulted in. Though appreciate that any informed comment would be inappropriate prior to the announcement.
Kingham West
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There are more negotiations regarding a further direct award to XC going on.
The short extension is interim, and is interim, to keep show on road, as I understand it.
The real problem is there is no consultation with users, as these discussions are in secret.
So it’s what officials think users want, and the treasury will pay for.
Quite frankly users want seats, and a buffet..
The short extension is interim, and is interim, to keep show on road, as I understand it.
The real problem is there is no consultation with users, as these discussions are in secret.
So it’s what officials think users want, and the treasury will pay for.
Quite frankly users want seats, and a buffet..
What makes you think that they won't just ignore consultation results?
It is a buffet or seats choice you can't have both.
Passenger numbers have increased and times have changed.
As you mentioned XC, a big problem there is trying to provide the main local service at the same time as providing a national level one. Changing that isn't easy or quick hence not for direct award and also need other TOCs to improve capacity and services.
It is a buffet or seats choice you can't have both.
Passenger numbers have increased and times have changed.
As you mentioned XC, a big problem there is trying to provide the main local service at the same time as providing a national level one. Changing that isn't easy or quick hence not for direct award and also need other TOCs to improve capacity and services.
Facing Back
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I don't like it that I cant have both. I want both. I want investment so that I can get both when I travel long distance.
And I know its not overnight and any capacity increase in welcomed but our railways should be better and a lack of vision and long term planning and investment - at least visibly - makes me feel that we should do more
I know I shouldn't, but I have to say that this shows appalling ignorance. The only way to get this is to have longer trains. Do you have the faintest idea how much extra that would cost? Are you going to pay for it?
And therefore we have the issue with any future of GWR (direct award or franchise).The main issue appear to be based on the DfT specification for the IEP contracts. No buffets and too many 10 car sets meaning either duplicating staff or one part of the train doesn't get a trolley service.
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