Southeastern: 'My three weeks of hell working on the railway' - BBC

An interesting article on the BBC website. It deals with the impact on mental health of railway staff and the impact that has on them an highlights one company champion helping to support colleagues.

Southeastern: 'My three weeks of hell working on the railway'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-51283936

A rail worker thrown from a train by an angry passenger during "three weeks of hell" at work has spoken of the impact it had on his mental health.

Southeastern train manager Neil Chapman said he was close to "losing it completely" before seeking help.

Mr Chapman said Lee Woolcott-Ellis, a fellow train manager who persuaded bosses to let him set up a mental health support system, was a "genius"...

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More needs to be done to send those people to jail.

Interesting article. I dont know the people in that story. My experience (of driver managers at least) in the metro area is very different to the story put across in this article. There are a few good ones but I can think of plenty who actively contribute to staff mental health problems. When I had a suicide all they did was get on my case and it was only talking to my colleagues that got me through it.

It's great that this issue is starting to be recognised and that employers are starting to give some kind of support, although it sounds as though it was a personal initiative to start with. What are other operators like?

I also read this with interest. I didn't work on the railways, but in another large infrastructure company. When a series of events at work caused me to become very stressed, my GP signed me off for several weeks. My managers' response was bafflement and disbelief. Their solution was to encourage me to leave my job and go work for somebody else. It's good then to read that SE trains is providing support - I could have used it.

One persons experience, does not reflect the true state of affairs.


Totally a typo :/ Cheers dc.

ComUtoR said:

One persons experience, doesn't not reflect the true state of affairs.

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Double negative on purpose?

DerekC said:

It's great that this issue is starting to be recognised and that employers are starting to give some kind of support, although it sounds as though it was a personal initiative to start with. What are other operators like?

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It sounds like he's done the Mental Health First Aider training. It's a national rather than personal initiative but one that has real advantages and all large or medium companies should adopt it. Main advantage being that you aren't talking to a doctor or psychiatric professional, it's likely to be one of your peers, so nothing like as 'pathologized'.

mpthomson said:

It sounds like he's done the Mental Health First Aider training. It's a national rather than personal initiative but one that has real advantages and all large or medium companies should adopt it. Main advantage being that you aren't talking to a doctor or psychiatric professional, it's likely to be one of your peers, so nothing like as 'pathologized'.

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agreed - i thought it was an interesting story to share and might give some people food for thought.

ComUtoR said:

One persons experience, does not reflect the true state of affairs.

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indeed - but neither does it invalidate the point

DarloRich said:

agreed - i thought it was an interesting story to share and might give some people food for thought.

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I'm glad you shared.

indeed - but neither does it invalidate the point

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Nothing is really discussed at any length and I get the impression that people haven't read it quite as close as they should. I don't think anyone is trying to invalidate any point but what happens on the ground is much more important than a headline.

I spoke to a friend of mine last year regarding mental health and what is happening in the workplace and what is happening in reality. Mental health is fast becoming a huge tick box exercise. Lots of 'We are doing this, we have this scheme, etc etc' but on the ground, bugger all is happening. Mental health shouldn't just be about helping people when they get to crisis point. Sadly, mental health is still highly underfunded and still treated poorly in the workplace.

There needs to be a complete culture change and one that happens at all levels. I do wonder; how many people at Southeastern actually knew this role existed and I wonder how many actually know about where they can get help or access someone who can put them on the path.

Southeastern is a company with around 4k employees just has the one guy as their mental health co-ordinator ? Not that I'm overly cynical but I suspect that this 'story' has been deliberately sent out for another reason.

I applaud the initiative and about time.

But the cynic in me wonders how long it will last. Many industries will "PR" its services but as ComUtoR says, nothing happens on the coal face. This is typified in my industry where anti-bullying and mental health services are being trumped on the one hand, but being cut on the other. And I've had first-hand experience of the former, having been dragged through the kangaroo courts...

When I had a fatality I must admit that Northern were brilliant. Literally seconds afterwards the guard was straight in, to control on the phone and my manager attending the scene.

They put zero pressure on me to return to work, offered councilling, phased return and a ride out with a DTM over the scene of the incident.

Say what you want about the company, the local management were brilliant.

GodAtum said:

More needs to be done to send those people to jail.

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I would hope you mean the passenger and not the conductor!

ComUtoR said:

I'm glad you shared.



Nothing is really discussed at any length and I get the impression that people haven't read it quite as close as they should. I don't think anyone is trying to invalidate any point but what happens on the ground is much more important than a headline.

I spoke to a friend of mine last year regarding mental health and what is happening in the workplace and what is happening in reality. Mental health is fast becoming a huge tick box exercise. Lots of 'We are doing this, we have this scheme, etc etc' but on the ground, bugger all is happening. Mental health shouldn't just be about helping people when they get to crisis point. Sadly, mental health is still highly underfunded and still treated poorly in the workplace.

There needs to be a complete culture change and one that happens at all levels. I do wonder; how many people at Southeastern actually knew this role existed and I wonder how many actually know about where they can get help or access someone who can put them on the path.

Southeastern is a company with around 4k employees just has the one guy as their mental health co-ordinator ? Not that I'm overly cynical but I suspect that this 'story' has been deliberately sent out for another reason.

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Where is the “like” button? Excellent post.

The fact these initiatives are appearing on the railway is definitely a good thing - and a sign that the culture is (finally) moving in the right direction. But, as you quite rightly say, it needs to lead to meaningful change for those on the ground and be more than just lip service.

I've just watched the programme on BBC 1, none of these problems are unique to the rail industry any public facing job is much the same, such is today's society.

ComUtoR said:

Southeastern is a company with around 4k employees just has the one guy as their mental health co-ordinator ? Not that I'm overly cynical but I suspect that this 'story' has been deliberately sent out for another reason.

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One person coordinating perhaps, but there's definitely people trained to deal with incidents too, including MHFA trained personnel. Facilities like the Railway Chaplain too.

Eccles1983 said:

When I had a fatality I must admit that Northern were brilliant. Literally seconds afterwards the guard was straight in, to control on the phone and my manager attending the scene.

They put zero pressure on me to return to work, offered councilling, phased return and a ride out with a DTM over the scene of the incident.

Say what you want about the company, the local management were brilliant.

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That's good to hear. Hopefully this attitude will continue with the OLR

Horizon22 said:

One person coordinating perhaps, but there's definitely people trained to deal with incidents too, including MHFA trained personnel. Facilities like the Railway Chaplain too.

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The Railway Chaplain is a huge unknown. Again, I wonder how many at Southeastern actually know their Chaplain changed recently. 'MHFA' you may need to explain as I am unaware what that means.

There is an element of mis-reporting. This isn't One person co-ordinating services. The role isn't known across Southeastern at all. It's PR spin.

ComUtoR said:

'MHFA' you may need to explain as I am unaware what that means.

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Mental Health First Aiders.

ComUtoR said:

The Railway Chaplain is a huge unknown. Again, I wonder how many at Southeastern actually know their Chaplain changed recently. 'MHFA' you may need to explain as I am unaware what that means.

There is an element of mis-reporting. This isn't One person co-ordinating services. The role isn't known across Southeastern at all. It's PR spin.

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A huge unknown is probably a understatement these days, I'd imagine more people (train crew) would be surprised there was such a thing as a railway chaplain, let alone they had recently changed.

Once, in 20 years, have I seen one who was on depot rounds having been newly appointed and that was well over a decade ago.

You've made me wonder if one even still exists for SWR/Wessex.

ComUtoR said:

'MHFA' you may need to explain as I am unaware what that means.

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It's broadly similar in intention, if not detail, to the TRiM process that the Army uses very successfully.

mpthomson said:

It relates to the course I described above, which is now common in most large organisations and I'm willing to bet that it's been advertised as it requires volunteers to complete it, it doesn't sit within anyone's specific job role.​

It's broadly similar in intention, if not detail, to the TRiM process that the Army uses very successfully.

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I’ve been on a couple of training courses aimed at operational staff, which emphasised the need to look out for people acting strangely on station platforms, and to approach them and ask “are you ok?”.

I suppose mental health “first aid” is along similar lines but aimed at colleagues rather than potentially suicidal members of the public.

theironroad said:

A huge unknown is probably a understatement these days, I'd imagine more people (train crew) would be surprised there was such a thing as a railway chaplain, let alone they had recently changed.

Once, in 20 years, have I seen one who was on depot rounds having been newly appointed and that was well over a decade ago.

You've made me wonder if one even still exists for SWR/Wessex.

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In another area, regularly used to see our Railway Chaplain - he’d be in the messroom or out travelling by trains all the time. Then he retired, he brought someone I assume was his replacement with him a few times, and I’ve never seen anyone since. I wouldn’t be surprised if newer colleagues didn’t even know they exist.

I find mental health support on the railway to vary depending on your line managers attitude to such things. They also seem to love putting people on attendance monitoring for “your benefit” if you have to take extended time off, piling on even more pressure once you feel able to come back.

ComUtoR said:

The Railway Chaplain is a huge unknown. Again, I wonder how many at Southeastern actually know their Chaplain changed recently. 'MHFA' you may need to explain as I am unaware what that means.

There is an element of mis-reporting. This isn't One person co-ordinating services. The role isn't known across Southeastern at all. It's PR spin.

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MHFA = Mental Health First Aid. Many staff are trained in this - it's a 1/2 day course. The role refers to the coordinator yes, but its not like this person will be working alone.

Not everyone working for a TOC is operational and out of those that are, not everyone will experience the potentially negative mental health incidents train crew might. I'm not saying office workers won't need mental health support, but it's a very different kettle of fish. That does cut down the scope of the role somewhat in terms of severity.

In your view its PR spin, but I know many who are aware of the chaplin (especially managers) who could offer that support should it be needed. Managers can signpost to staff; staff don't need to be intimately aware of all support available, so long as someone is.

Horizon22 said:

In your view its PR spin, but I know many who are aware of the chaplin (especially managers) who could offer that support should it be needed.

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Mental health should not be reactive. I think the biggest problem we have is that people are getting into crisis before help if even offered. We seem to ignore anything until the brown stuff hits the spinny thing. Mental health is still a taboo subject and we are only now starting to learn how to deal with it. Sadly, we are doing very little to prevent it. The railway is rarely proactive. They are almost proud that the rule book is 'written in blood' and that they take the approach of 'This happened, so we have started doing...'

Managers can signpost to staff; staff don't need to be intimately aware of all support available, so long as someone is.

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Mental health support should never be on a 'need to know' basis. We all need to raise the level of awareness and to show that support is available and how it can be accessed. Keeping it to a small number of staff isn't helping and is not a sensible approach. What good is a Mental health First Aider if only a few people know they exist ? Surely its better for everyone to be aware of who they can go to. At 00040 in the morning, where is my Manager when I need them ? Should I wait till the morning, call the DMs, check if they can signpost me, contact the MHFA, get signposted again elsewhere, then eventually get the support I need or should I be able to contact the Chaplain directly on her mobile ? Everyone needs to be aware of the support available.

Not forgetting that people are often uncomfortable speaking to their Managers. If an employee knows they can speak directly to someone who is able to give them confidential advice and help, they are more likely to use it. Staff, especially Drivers, worry about going sick because of the punitive way that sickness is treated. Drivers have incidents and then reveal they are going through divorce, drinking heavily, going through grief, sick relatives, and crikey knows what else. If you give people access to Mental Health resources and educate them in how it can be accessed; you just might help prevent people from going into crisis.

Other than the excellent video produced by the RED team; I have never had a single discussion about Mental Health in the workplace.

ComUtoR said:

Mental health should not be reactive. I think the biggest problem we have is that people are getting into crisis before help if even offered. We seem to ignore anything until the brown stuff hits the spinny thing. Mental health is still a taboo subject and we are only now starting to learn how to deal with it. Sadly, we are doing very little to prevent it. The railway is rarely proactive. They are almost proud that the rule book is 'written in blood' and that they take the approach of 'This happened, so we have started doing...'



Mental health support should never be on a 'need to know' basis. We all need to raise the level of awareness and to show that support is available and how it can be accessed. Keeping it to a small number of staff isn't helping and is not a sensible approach. What good is a Mental health First Aider if only a few people know they exist ? Surely its better for everyone to be aware of who they can go to. At 00040 in the morning, where is my Manager when I need them ? Should I wait till the morning, call the DMs, check if they can signpost me, contact the MHFA, get signposted again elsewhere, then eventually get the support I need or should I be able to contact the Chaplain directly on her mobile ? Everyone needs to be aware of the support available.

Not forgetting that people are often uncomfortable speaking to their Managers. If an employee knows they can speak directly to someone who is able to give them confidential advice and help, they are more likely to use it. Staff, especially Drivers, worry about going sick because of the punitive way that sickness is treated. Drivers have incidents and then reveal they are going through divorce, drinking heavily, going through grief, sick relatives, and crikey knows what else. If you give people access to Mental Health resources and educate them in how it can be accessed; you just might help prevent people from going into crisis.

Other than the excellent video produced by the RED team; I have never had a single discussion about Mental Health in the workplace.

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I agree in a way with you but at the same time it's necessary - no company has the ability to be available 24/7 for 100% of staff on any issue, including mental health. I think it's a positive step it's being addressed, whereas you only seem to see the negatives in it and have decried it as "PR spin". Obviously some employees see more information than others, and its always been harder for drivers / conductors to be up-to-date on everything without reading a noticeboard absolutely crowded with general nonsense and material that is now irrelevant.

Staff being worried to talk to their managers is a separate point but unless there's a visible change in someone's character, how is a manager to know there's an issue? They cannot read a crystal ball and many employees are very, very good at hiding problems. Not to mention the time constraints on a manager's day. The aim is to make this more open; by being proactive so a driver opens up before they have their incident. Prevention is better than cure and all that. I think we both know that at 0040, and it was serious enough you'd be contacting your on-call DM. Again how that DM responds is down to training and their personality but the support is thee yet they won't be trained to deliver everything they a mental health professional can. Nor should we expect them too in my view.

I'm not naive enough to think this won't require a significant cultural change not just at Southeastern but at all TOCs (and society as a whole tbh) and railway culture hasn't helped but it's moving the right way and any communications that promotes this is good news.

Horizon22 said:

no company has the ability to be available 24/7 for 100% of staff on any issue, including mental health.

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Southeastern offer two services, that I know of, which are 24/7

think it's a positive step it's being addressed, whereas you only seem to see the negatives in it and have decried it as "PR spin".

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Because I see the reality of it. Because I see this as another tick box exercise, because I hear too many stories where there is no support, because I see the same attitudes being perpetuated by the people who are supposed to help.

Obviously some employees see more information than others, and its always been harder for drivers / conductors to be up-to-date on everything without reading a noticeboard absolutely crowded with general nonsense and material that is now irrelevant.

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How many years has that been the case. What actually gets done to address it ? For Southeastern specifically; how many times has internal communication been one of the worse results on the employee survey ?

Staff being worried to talk to their managers is a separate point

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Its linked. Having staff almost live in fear about the punitive elements of Mental Health is a serious issue. It drives people to hide their problems further and perpetuates the existing culture. Companies are very quick to say that X, Y, and Z are not part of it because they do not want to address X, Y and Z.

but unless there's a visible change in someone's character, how is a manager to know there's an issue? They cannot read a crystal ball and many employees are very, very good at hiding problems.

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They don't, and we are. So why don't we address that ? For a start, how many PPCs (Planned personal contact) actually take place ?

Part of what I'm saying is that it shouldn't be the sole responsibility of the Managers. Again, it comes down to communicating to staff that there are people available, some of which are your colleagues, some are support schemes, and some are completely external.

Not to mention the time constraints on a manager's day.

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Which is an excuse. Again, do something about it and share the responsibility with others and ensure that there is time available.

The aim is to make this more open; by being proactive so a driver opens up before they have their incident. Prevention is better than cure and all that.

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How do you make something 'more open' by telling people that only a few people need to know :/

I think we both know that at 0040, and it was serious enough you'd be contacting your on-call DM.

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I have no idea who my on-call DM is and to reitterate, people do not tend to call them. Its also a problem with what people consider 'serious' Someone going through a divorce will often see that as something they need to deal with. People like to keep things private. Having the ability to contact someone confidentially can change that. Giving people the knowledge of where they can access support helps empower them to make better decisions.

Again how that DM responds is down to training and their personality but the support is thee yet they won't be trained to deliver everything they a mental health professional can. Nor should we expect them too in my view.

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I agree and its also why the constant 'speak to your Manager' approach isn't working.

I'm not naive enough to think this won't require a significant cultural change not just at Southeastern

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Neither am I but for there to be a change, something needs to be done rather than treating this as everything else has been for years.

but at all TOCs (and society as a whole tbh) and railway culture hasn't helped but it's moving the right way and any communications that promotes this is good news.

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The railway moves at a glacial pace. The proverbial horse has already bolted and is trying to find its way out the stable. We cannot let it out.

You are clearly not happy about the situation - mainly about DMs it seems - but when I talk about the alternatives aren't happy about those either. Communication is obviously important and primarily that comes through your line manager or internal comms, both of which you have said is not good enough. I am curious about how exactly you plan on disseminating the information across a diverse staff base. But communication is a two-way street and requires input from both sides, not shooting down each suggestion. You are not helping the cultural image "oh well its failed before, so what's the point now another PR initative".

A lot of what you've said is cultural ("people like to keep things private"). If that persists, nobody can help even if you've got hundreds of mental health trained staff.

Horizon22 said:

You are clearly not happy about the situation

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Because I actually give a damn.

- mainly about DMs it seems

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The DM team is my point of contact. Pretty much for everything. Quite often, they are not available. I know the constraints of their job and I know the constraints of 'the system' So why do we keep pushing more and more through it ? Why is it that there is a continuation of a broken system ?

Communication is obviously important and primarily that comes through your line manager or internal comms, both of which you have said is not good enough.

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Because it isn't working.

I am curious about how exactly you plan on disseminating the information across a diverse staff base. But communication is a two-way street and requires input from both sides, not shooting down each suggestion.

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It is a two way street. I agree 100%. So why is there still a 'top down' approach ?

You are not helping the cultural image "oh well its failed before, so what's the point now another PR initative".

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I haven't said that at all. What I have said is that we all need to change and I have a desire for it to change.

Horizon22 said:

Not to mention the time constraints on a manager's day.

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When they are only working a 3 or 4 hour day the last thing they need is a drivers personal problems clogging up their busy schedule.

ComUtoR said:

Its linked. Having staff almost live in fear about the punitive elements of Mental Health is a serious issue. It drives people to hide their problems further and perpetuates the existing culture. Companies are very quick to say that X, Y, and Z are not part of it because they do not want to address X, Y and Z.

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Agree with this. I've seen a driver book on for duty in tears. Myself and others told him to go and speak to the managers and not to pick up. The managers talked him into picking up. A few weeks later the same driver had an incident and they threw the book at him. Its also widely accepted that anything a driver says in confidence to the DMs will be all over the depot in a day or two. I know I'm not allowed to swear on this forum but if I was I would be turning the rest of this page blue with my thoughts on those managers. I wouldnt trust them with the contents of my weekly shopping list, let alone any personal problems.