DB Cargo - Truth Hurts

daniellondon · 4 Feb 2020

I applied for a trainee/junior apprentice role for DB cargo for their talent pool and got rejected.

A lot of threads on here advised to be honest with past criminal convictions. So I was.

What hurts the most is that my CV is fantastic. I demonstrated I have the appropriate physical and mechanical experience and also dealt with a lot of high stress situations in my previous jobs.

So that’s what honesty gets you chaps.

Well they can stuff themselves.

RailUK Forums

omnicity4659 · 4 Feb 2020

Have they said that you were rejected on the basis of having a criminal record?

daniellondon · 4 Feb 2020

No because that would be illegal. But I’m 99% that’s the reason. I think my CV and prior experience should be enough to at least invite me to the first stage tests.

43066 · 4 Feb 2020

As long as the convictions are spent AIUI there’s no requirement to declare them (on the contrary, you are legally entitled to omit to mention them, even if specifically asked).

Worth considering for future applications.

MA8141 · 4 Feb 2020

daniellondon said:
No because that would be illegal. But I’m 99% that’s the reason. I think my CV and prior experience should be enough to at least invite me to the first stage tests.

The hardest part is getting through the initial paper sift, sometimes there are 100’s of applications for a minimal amount of roles. Don’t let it dampen your chances and just keep applying for anything and everything that pops up !

Tom Quinne · 5 Feb 2020

Unfortunately, if you’ve have a criminal conviction you’ll be much less desirable to the company no matter how good your CV is compared to someone who has lived by the law of the land.

That’s life, poor choices have long term consequences.

PaulBusDriver · 5 Feb 2020

If you have unspent convictions then unfortunately you are going to find yourself at a disadvantage, however a lot of people I work with have chequered histories themselves and I think with enough time since your mistakes occurred people will be less harsh in judging. Its always going to be a concern to a company that a potential employee could be a loose cannon and with such serious potential for loss of many lives the TOCs are always going to weigh up the probability and likely choose from the other 1000s of applicants if you haven't given enough time and distance from when you were in trouble.
Sorry if I sound patronising but that's just the way it is, TOCs are investing thousands in someone and will limit their liability.

Tom Quinne · 5 Feb 2020

DB can “stuff themselves” anyway.....nothing like taking responsibility for your own actions.

Better to be honest, than not - then be flush out a few years down the line and get sacked.

Bit of a theme here, honesty and integrity.

scouseyb123 · 5 Feb 2020

daniellondon said:
I applied for a trainee/junior apprentice role for DB cargo for their talent pool and got rejected.

A lot of threads on here advised to be honest with past criminal convictions. So I was.

What hurts the most is that my CV is fantastic. I demonstrated I have the appropriate physical and mechanical experience and also dealt with a lot of high stress situations in my previous jobs.

So that’s what honesty gets you chaps.

Well they can stuff themselves.

Something a bit arrogant about this. How do you know for sure that other candidates didn’t have better experience or qualifications than you?

michael74 · 5 Feb 2020

daniellondon said:
I applied for a trainee/junior apprentice role for DB cargo for their talent pool and got rejected.

A lot of threads on here advised to be honest with past criminal convictions. So I was.

What hurts the most is that my CV is fantastic. I demonstrated I have the appropriate physical and mechanical experience and also dealt with a lot of high stress situations in my previous jobs.

So that’s what honesty gets you chaps.

Well they can stuff themselves.

I have applied to DB Cargo for the same post, got rejected at the paper sift, applied to GWR got through to the 1st OPC test; both applications mirrored each other.... thats just the nature of railway recruitment, it may not have been anything to do with your past just that there were better applications than yours.

As bitter as you may feel, it can take years and years of plugging away at it to get anywhere, I am in my 3rd year of trying and I have no intention of giving up (unless I get to retirement age first, then I will just go an volunteer on my local preserved line).

A word to the wise, these forums are monitored by employers and once you have done a few posts about various applications to TOCS and FOCS it would not take a genius for the recruitment teams to suss out who people are....

43066 · 5 Feb 2020

Tom Quinne said:
Unfortunately, if you’ve have a criminal conviction you’ll be much less desirable to the company no matter how good your CV is compared to someone who has lived by the law of the land.

That’s life, poor choices have long term consequences.

For unspent convictions I would agree, but not for spent convictions. At least not for roles which don’t require a full CRB check such as driving trains.

Spent convictions do not need to to be disclosed to a prospective employer, even if the applicant is directly asked about them.

The fact the OP has said DB wouldn’t have been allowed to discriminate implies his conviction(s) are spent, which makes me wonder why they were disclosed in the first place.

EDITED TO REMOVE TYPO

SlimJim1694 · 5 Feb 2020

Tom Quinne said:
That’s life, poor choices have long term consequences

To be fair, you dont know the nature or circumstances of the guys conviction. It's easy to say he's made "poor choices" but sometimes people get convictions for acts of self defence, being in the wrong place at the wrong time or being innocent of any crime but wrongly convicted etc. For example, my cousin got done for beating up a guy who tried to rape his daughter. The sex case never got done and is still free to get a job as a train driver. I don't think it's fair to make the "poor choices" judgement without the facts.

baz962 · 5 Feb 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
To be fair, you dont know the nature or circumstances of the guys conviction. It's easy to say he's made "poor choices" but sometimes people get convictions for acts of self defence, being in the wrong place at the wrong time or being innocent of any crime but wrongly convicted etc. For example, my cousin got done for beating up a guy who tried to rape his daughter. The sex case never got done and is still free to get a job as a train driver. I don't think it's fair to make the "poor choices" judgement without the facts.

You don't get a conviction for self defence. If a jury or CPS believe you acted in self defence , you wouldn't get convicted.

SlimJim1694 · 5 Feb 2020

baz962 said:
You don't get a conviction for self defence. If a jury or CPS believe you acted in self defence , you wouldn't get convicted.

Fair point.

The crux of my argument is that the CPS and courts opinion of whether someone is guilty does not necessarily reflect "poor choices". I dont know enough about the law to split hairs.

What I do know is that plenty of people have been given criminal records for things that aren't just out and out deliberate crimes, while plenty of individuals have broken the law countless times and never been done. Other people have been convicted of things they were innocent of in miscarriages of justice. Just because someone has a conviction does not make them a bad person or unsuitable for employment.

I'd agree with the above poster that if the convictions are spent then don't put them down.

heedfan · 5 Feb 2020

Be aware that TOCs/FOCs read these forums. Between the information you have disclosed about yourself and your username it would probably not be too difficult for them to identify exactly who you are.

Telling TOCs to stuff themselves will get you nowhere. It is frustrating, most of us have been rejected at one point or another but this is not the way to deal with it.

MostlyHarmless · 5 Feb 2020

43066 said:
For unspent convictions I would agree, but not for spent convictions. At least not for roles which don’t require a full CRB check such as driving trains.

Unspent convictions do not need to to be disclosed to a prospective employer, even if the applicant is directly asked about them.

The fact the OP has said DB wouldn’t have been allowed to discriminate implies his conviction(s) are spent, which makes me wonder why they were disclosed in the first place.

Not true - you need to tell your employer about any unspent convictions if you are asked. If you don't then they are within their rights to dismiss you if they find out later. Also some convictions are never spent (I think it's sentences over 4 years). Spent convictions are different but its does depend on whether you are applying for a regulated or unregulated role.

It's a bit more complex than it seems and without knowing all of the fact about the OP, it's difficult to make any judgement. This little flowchart simplifies it a bit.

https://3bx16p38bchl32s0e12di03h-wp...s/2015/06/do-i-need-to-disclose-flowchart.pdf

43066 · 5 Feb 2020

MostlyHarmless said:
Not true - you need to tell your employer about any unspent convictions if you are asked. If you don't then they are within their rights to dismiss you if they find out later. Also some convictions are never spent (I think it's sentences over 4 years). Spent convictions are different but its does depend on whether you are applying for a regulated or unregulated role.

It's a bit more complex than it seems and without knowing all of the fact about the OP, it's difficult to make any judgement. This little flowchart simplifies it a bit.

https://3bx16p38bchl32s0e12di03h-wp...s/2015/06/do-i-need-to-disclose-flowchart.pdf

Yes apologies - that was a careless typo in my previous post (now corrected). The whole point of my post was to highlight than spent convictions do not need to be disclosed!

It’s also true to say that the vast majority of railway roles - train driving included - do not involve working with children, vulnerable people etc. and will not require full CRB checking.

Heaps92 · 5 Feb 2020

daniellondon said:
I applied for a trainee/junior apprentice role for DB cargo for their talent pool and got rejected.

A lot of threads on here advised to be honest with past criminal convictions. So I was.

What hurts the most is that my CV is fantastic. I demonstrated I have the appropriate physical and mechanical experience and also dealt with a lot of high stress situations in my previous jobs.

So that’s what honesty gets you chaps.

Well they can stuff themselves.

Grow up

Applepie356 · 5 Feb 2020

Just keep trying, Train driver applications get thousands of applicants for like 50 positions.

Also keep looking at your CV. Make sure the skills and qualifications are in line with being a train driver.

MostlyHarmless · 5 Feb 2020

43066 said:
Yes apologies - that was a careless typo in my previous post (now corrected). The whole point of my post was to highlight than spent convictions do not need to be disclosed!

It’s also true to say that the vast majority of railway roles - train driving included - do not involve working with children, vulnerable people etc. and will not require full CRB checking.

Hope I didn't come over a as a pedant! And yes you don't need to tell them about spent convictions and because most of the roles in the railway are probably unregulated, then they can't request a DBS for them.

I suppose the nub of this thread is whether you would disclose them if asked. The OP seems to think it was unwise although he has no evidence to support his assertion that it was the reason he failed the paper sift.

scouseyb123 · 5 Feb 2020

I wouldn’t employ the person just on the arrogant assumption they thought they’d get the job.

GB · 5 Feb 2020

daniellondon said:
I applied for a trainee/junior apprentice role for DB cargo for their talent pool and got rejected.

A lot of threads on here advised to be honest with past criminal convictions. So I was.

What hurts the most is that my CV is fantastic. I demonstrated I have the appropriate physical and mechanical experience and also dealt with a lot of high stress situations in my previous jobs.

So that’s what honesty gets you chaps.

Well they can stuff themselves.

Either you didn't come across as well as you think you did or there was someone else better (or both).

daniellondon · 5 Feb 2020

Tom Quinne said:
Unfortunately, if you’ve have a criminal conviction you’ll be much less desirable to the company no matter how good your CV is compared to someone who has lived by the law of the land.

That’s life, poor choices have long term consequences.

I was 19 at the time of the offence, it was the result of an illegal search of my home (which actually doesn’t matter in English law as the evidence is still admissible) and they delayed my prosecution for two years (which is why the conviction is still unspent). Unfortunately not everything is a result of ‘choices’. Otherwise I would chose to become a millionaire.

daniellondon · 5 Feb 2020

43066 said:
For unspent convictions I would agree, but not for spent convictions. At least not for roles which don’t require a full CRB check such as driving trains.

Spent convictions do not need to to be disclosed to a prospective employer, even if the applicant is directly asked about them.

The fact the OP has said DB wouldn’t have been allowed to discriminate implies his conviction(s) are spent, which makes me wonder why they were disclosed in the first place.

EDITED TO REMOVE TYPO

They aren’t spent, I just assumed they aren’t allowed to discriminate on unspent convictions either. But maybe they are. Anyway I’m at a cross roads in life, either becoming a train driver, which has always been a dream of mine and having a steady pay check or starting my own business. Which is risky but better than having my future dictated by HR office workers.

i guess DB cargo have helped me decide

P.S. I believe in karma so I’m sure that some of those drivers that did get selected will quit as soon as they are trained, then they won’t have any drivers.

daniellondon · 5 Feb 2020

MostlyHarmless said:
Hope I didn't come over a as a pedant! And yes you don't need to tell them about spent convictions and because most of the roles in the railway are probably unregulated, then they can't request a DBS for them.

I suppose the nub of this thread is whether you would disclose them if asked. The OP seems to think it was unwise although he has no evidence to support his assertion that it was the reason he failed the paper sift.

100% the reason I failed the paper sift, I have a history of both mechanical and customer service roles. I’ve also read through the train RSSB rule book like 10 times and referenced most of the information in my cover letter - showing a proactive approach.

Anyway not going to let it bother me - I would just recommend not declaring unspent convictions then if they want to check, tough luck. Quit. If they don’t, you’ll be in a better position than me.

OneLowban · 5 Feb 2020

Starting to sound like a troll now.

GB · 5 Feb 2020

Your true colours are displaying here. You act like they owe you something and you are better than everyone else.

Edit: I am also unsure what you hoped to gain by reading the rule book and referencing the material in your letter.

daniellondon · 5 Feb 2020

GB said:
Your true colours are displaying here. You act like they owe you something and you are better than everyone else.

Edit: I am also unsure what you hoped to gain by reading the rule book and referencing the material in your letter.

Because I’ve gotten every job I’ve ever applied for (my last job I got before my conviction so they didn’t check). So obviously it’s not a problem with me but with them and the fact they worry about unspent convictions. Just annoyed at them because I know I’d do a great job and be more proactive than 80% of people.

Tom Quinne · 5 Feb 2020

Illegal search, okay.....

No doubt you’ve a resentment of the police now as well.

You’ll get zero sympathy in here I’m afraid.

GuardD · 5 Feb 2020

DB Cargo - Truth Hurts

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