Slate from North Wales

krus_aragon said:

I meant to suggest that there was a loop on (the approach to) the quay sidings, as opposed to the quay sidings forming a loop with the down main. I will however yeild to your recollections of how it was actually used. (Did trains leaving the yard to head toward Chester propel out onto the up line, or run around in the station, rather than shunt via the quay sidings?)

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trains toward chester would either propel back towards the quay or onto the down main depending what other trains were due ----- it was more common to propel onto the DM then blast away through plat 3 seeing headways on todays railway gives me a wry smile - as it was quite a common occurrence for the warrington goods to back out onto the down main then go straight into full power (and stay that way until Colwyn Bay) and roar off through the platforms as the dinner time London (non stop Llan Jn-chest) would appear out of the tubular bridge. and it was vary rare for the London to 'catch' the goods

Leeds1970 said:

trains toward chester would either propel back towards the quay or onto the down main depending what other trains were due ----- it was more common to propel onto the DM then blast away through plat 3 seeing headways on todays railway gives me a wry smile - as it was quite a common occurrence for the warrington goods to back out onto the down main then go straight into full power (and stay that way until Colwyn Bay) and roar off through the platforms as the dinner time London (non stop Llan Jn-chest) would appear out of the tubular bridge. and it was vary rare for the London to 'catch' the goods

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Thanks for the explanation, I can picture that perfectly!

krus_aragon said:

Thanks for the explanation, I can picture that perfectly!

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dave sallery and ivor buffton have some fantastic pics from the coast -- there is also a signal box site (sorry cant remember name- some one will probably add it later ) that shows the track diagram inside Llandudno jnc box

Funnily enough there was a discussion at work recently regarding the use of the Conwy Valley route to remove slate from Blaenau. It centred around various efforts over the years to introduce such freight traffic. The impact on the Conwy Valley Branch which would have needed pretty much complete relaying as for years it had been maintained as RA1 Sprinter only, major earthworks/flood defence works as the Environment Agency had stopped maintaining the flood defences (allowing the railway formation to become the flood defence. This was during the Railtrack era. Network Rail carried the mandate to operate, maintain and renew the railway but were not funded to enhance it. So the multi £m funding required to upgrade the branch would have had to come from both the aggregate company and Welsh Assembly Government as Network Rail were not allowed to fund it.

Leeds1970 said:

dave sallery and ivor buffton have some fantastic pics from the coast -- there is also a signal box site (sorry cant remember name- some one will probably add it later ) that shows the track diagram inside Llandudno jnc box

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Hopefully some of these will jog some memories.

http://www.6g.nwrail.org.uk/


http://www.6g.nwrail.org.uk/signallingoverwales.htm

http://2d53.co.uk/

http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

Belperpete said:

Are you sure the overbridge was built by BR? I thought it was built when the new road to TanyGrisiau power station was built (going over that overbridge).

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Firstly, I'd like to apologise for not responding to your question earlier, but I've been otherwise engaged with family matters.

In my post, I questioned the Wikipedia date of opening of the connection as 1964, but I've subsequently found (in WG Rear's book about the Blaenau Ffestiniog branch) a reference to it being officially opened on 20th April, 1964; moreover, there are a number of photos reproduced in the book showing the connection, and all are also dated 1964, and one of them clearly shows the new bridge. However, the connection must have been completed for some considerable time before it was officially opened, as another photo - dated August 1963 - also shows it. The earliest self-taken photo I have showing the connection was taken in 1964.

The photo on the front cover of Bill Rear's book is of a pair of class 108 DMUs at Blaenau Ffestiniog North; the photo is taken looking towards the buffer stops, and is dated 1959. The "new" bridge hasn't been constructed at that time.

This verifies my recollection of the area as it was in 1958/9; I was taken to see both ends of the Moelwyn Tunnel and walked most of the FR trackbed between Tan-y-Bwlch and Duffws in those summers, and I have an undated photo of the old Tanygrisiau station building on a later visit to the upper stretches of the FR which I guess was taken in 1961 (I'm basing that upon it being on the same film as a photo of the FR's 'Merddin Emrys' running cabless and in red primer). I THINK it was on this 1961 walk that I saw the narrow gauge slate train entering the exchange sidings along the link from the Oakley Quarry mentioned in my original post.

I have photos taken on the FR in summer 1962; I can date those with accuracy because one is of 'Linda' undergoing tests following its arrival from the Penryn Quarry. So based upon what I can verify from elsewhere, it must have been this summer that I saw the connection/bridge under construction at Blaenau Ffestiniog (although some trips to the FR were the "long way round" via Caernarfon and Afon Wen, most were via Blaenau, hence my recollections of the locality).

So there must still have been some slate moved by rail from Blaenau Ffestiniog in 1962, and it must have been assumed that it would continue, as the bridge works were undertaken to facilitate its continuation.

So that brings me to the road to the power station.

To be honest, I can't remember it ever NOT having been there, and I'm as sure as I can be that it was there when I took the 1961 walk to Tanygrisiau; moreover, I THOUGHT it was there when I was taken along the FR between North station and Duffws in either 1958 or 1959

I don't know who funded the overbridge which carried the road over the new connection - Liverpool Corporation maybe? - but it was built by BR independently of the road to the power station; I'm as certain as I can be of that, and also that it pre-dates the power station road. However, I haven't been able to find any references as to when the power station road was built, but I do remember going along it once on the connecting Crossville bus which was run some years in the early 1960s between BR at Blaenau Ffestiniog North and the FR at Tan-y-Bwlch. Again, that doesn't really help with dates or whether or not the power station road pre-dated the overbridge!

I'm conscious that this has gone a bit off-topic, but I thought the question deserved a reply, and I've given as much information as I can regarding dates based upon my own photos and dated ones in Bill Rear's book.

But to bring it back onto the topic of slate from North Wales, I can't recall ever seeing any narrow gauge slate wagons in the ex GWR station yard at Blaenau; I do recall seeing a freight on the branch from Bala Junction, but I can't remember what it consisted of so it may have contained some slate. I guess that would also have been 1958 or 1959.

The road that is now the A496 from Blaenau NW to just past the Plastics factory was built to bring in materials for the power station. I am fairly certain that the roads at the NW station end of Blaenau were fairly extensively remodelled at the same time as this road was built, and the bridges were rebuilt as part of this work. I seem to recall some mention of this in an old FR magazine - I will try and dig it out when I have a bit more time.

I seem to recall that the original intention was for the two portals to be used the other way around - the southern portal (now used by the FR) was for the standard gauge connection, and the northern portal (now the Conwy Valley line) was for a narrow-gauge link between the NW yard and the quarries above the old GW station. Don't forget that the FR was originally going to have its terminus on the opposite side of the road to the NW station - the idea of a joint Central station was a fairly last-minute development: as the FR reaching Blaenau steadily became more reality than pipe-dream, the councils got more concerned that the town centre was being left more and more side-lined by developments.

Update courtesy http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm


Our thanks to John Sweeney who responded to our comment about lack of progress on the new freight flows he writes: 'Network Rail and Hanson have both been at Penmaenmawr sidings/yard on a few occasions. The site cabins have been refreshed,as have the sidings themselves. The points to the main line have been unclipped by NR to indicating an imminent return of the stone trains. Also the stone conveyor from the quarry face to the sidings has been fettled by engineers and tested.

'At Llandudno Junction, it is slate waste , not domestic refuse (my error - C.H.). Breedon Aggregates has the lease on Glan Conwy goods yard and the sidings next to The Junction station. Work should begin in the spring to clear the forest from the lines, remove the containers from the yard, and uncover the rails inset in concrete. From what I have been told, GBRf should be doing these train flows, and crew training, etc. will start as and when the area is ready for the trains.'

Be great to see freight on the Coast again...but has some of the signalling and track been rationalised recently which may prevent passenger trains overtaking slow freights?

Two videos have appeared on Alan Snowden's YouTube channel in the last few days recording a trip from Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog North, and then back to Llanfairfechan, both filmed in 1961:


These show quite a bit of the rail facilities for moving slate, as they existed at that time at Blaenau Ffestiniog North; some film of the former GWR exchange yard, already closed at the time of filming, is also enclosed.

There is also a film taken of a trip between Llanfairfechan and Llanberis, also filmed in 1961.

At that time, each summer there were services over the Caernarfon - Llanberis branch; these were marketed as 'The Snowdonian', and the service started and finished each day at Rhyl. Between the outwards and return trips, the train shuttled to and fro between Llanberis and Caernarfon, and use of the service was covered by the LMR's runabout ticket for North Wales. This film can be accessed at:


This doesn't add much to the discussion so far on this thread, but it does show the Penryn Quarry Railway and there is a brief glance of the rail connection to Port Dinorwic (where slate from the Padarn Quarries was transhipped from the narrow to standard gauge.

Finally, there is film of a visit to the Festiniog Railway in 1961 at:


Just over 2 mins into the film, there is a view of the slate exchange sidings at Minffordd; there is a significant amount of slate waiting to be loaded onto rail, and there are (I think) three standard gauge wagons being loaded.

grumpyoldman01 said:

But to bring it back onto the topic of slate from North Wales, I can't recall ever seeing any narrow gauge slate wagons in the ex GWR station yard at Blaenau; I do recall seeing a freight on the branch from Bala Junction, but I can't remember what it consisted of so it may have contained some slate. I guess that would also have been 1958 or 1959.

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In 1962, after the Bala line had closed, the sidings at Blaenau Central were full of narrow gauge slate wagons. As kids, we used to play making up trains with them!

Llandudno said:

Be great to see freight on the Coast again...but has some of the signalling and track been rationalised recently which may prevent passenger trains overtaking slow freights?

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The new signalling should improve matters as trains can now run more closely. The new bi-directional loop at Mostyn has replaced the previous loops at Holywell Junction so no loss of capacity there. Very little track rationalisation was done apart from the passenger loop at Abergele being taken out. Additional crossovers and bi-directional signalling also give more flexibility.

Penmorfa said:

The new signalling should improve matters as trains can now run more closely. The new bi-directional loop at Mostyn has replaced the previous loops at Holywell Junction so no loss of capacity there. Very little track rationalisation was done apart from the passenger loop at Abergele being taken out. Additional crossovers and bi-directional signalling also give more flexibility.

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That’s good to hear!
Which is the longest block section between Junction and Chester?

Penmorfa said:

The new signalling should improve matters as trains can now run more closely. The new bi-directional loop at Mostyn has replaced the previous loops at Holywell Junction so no loss of capacity there. Very little track rationalisation was done apart from the passenger loop at Abergele being taken out. Additional crossovers and bi-directional signalling also give more flexibility.

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Even after the Resignalling there are still very long block sections from Flint to Rhyl, the bi directional signalling is useless as well for anything other than working around early morning / very low traffic levels possessions on one line or the other.

Tom Quinne said:

Even after the Resignalling there are still very long block sections from Flint to Rhyl, the bi directional signalling is useless as well for anything other than working around early morning / very low traffic levels possessions on one line or the other.

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That's presumably what it was intended for - engineering access on this route is based on planned single line working overnight. There's nowhere in the UK where traffic density is low enough for bi-directional working to be of use for overtaking.

Llandudno said:

That’s good to hear!
Which is the longest block section between Junction and Chester?

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I’m sure there is one, but they’re all roughly the same. The problem with it is it’s all 2 aspect so the blocks are double the distance. There’s so many places that need extra signals put in in the north wales/north west England area now. You can still move pretty slowly if following a late train out of Llandudno. There’s no call for 4 aspect signalling but I do think 2 aspect is far too restrictive and it’ll only get worse now Avanti will run an extra train and TfW are planning on at least 1 more too (I think)

Belperpete said:

The road that is now the A496 from Blaenau NW to just past the Plastics factory was built to bring in materials for the power station. I am fairly certain that the roads at the NW station end of Blaenau were fairly extensively remodelled at the same time as this road was built, and the bridges were rebuilt as part of this work. I seem to recall some mention of this in an old FR magazine - I will try and dig it out when I have a bit more time.

I seem to recall that the original intention was for the two portals to be used the other way around - the southern portal (now used by the FR) was for the standard gauge connection, and the northern portal (now the Conwy Valley line) was for a narrow-gauge link between the NW yard and the quarries above the old GW station. Don't forget that the FR was originally going to have its terminus on the opposite side of the road to the NW station - the idea of a joint Central station was a fairly last-minute development: as the FR reaching Blaenau steadily became more reality than pipe-dream, the councils got more concerned that the town centre was being left more and more side-lined by developments.

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I used to have an engineers drawing of the joint station scheme, (including approach tracks/roads) sold by the Ffestiniog Railway in their gift shop I assume, presumably around the time of construction. Sadly I threw it away at some point. Perhaps another reader, or the FR themselves, can find a copy.

Investigating further, what is now the A496 was indeed originally built as the power station access in the 1950s. However, the roads in Blaenau were remodelled when the standard gauge link between LNW and GW stations was subsequently put in, in 1963/4, as it displaced the road that used to run past the LNW station direct to the town square. The bridge that was built at the time has two portals, the north one for the narrow gauge and the south for the new standard gauge. When the joint station was built, the standard gauge was shifted to the north of most of the link formation, but continues to use the south portal of the bridge (albeit it was realigned through it). The two new bridges over the narrow gauge were each built with two portals, to allow for a future narrow gauge link Blaenau station to Llechwedd quarries. Plans for this link are being resurrected.