Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

Llandudno · 4 Feb 2020

grumpyoldman01 said:
We're talking at cross purposes.

I appreciate what the current proposals for December 2021 are, but my question relates to EMR's proposals for December 2020.

The December 2020 timetable change consultation leaflet available on EMR stations states that "An early morning Norwich service will now start from Sheffield instead of Nottingham" and "Evening services will now run through from Norwich to Sheffield to create more through journey opportunities . . . "; it also states that there will be "An additional late night service from Manchester Piccadilly to Nottingham". Nothing really is added to these statements when the on-line consultation document is viewed.

Hence my question; will these trains go via the Erewash or via Derby?

The later last train from Manchester to Nottingham is an interesting one, what time will this be, it has got to be an improvement on the dreaded 2228 current last train which stops at every lamppost in the Hope Valley and takes 2hours 12 minutes to reach Nottingham.

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LowLevel · 4 Feb 2020

Llandudno said:
The later last train from Manchester to Nottingham is an interesting one, what time will this be, it has got to be an improvement on the dreaded 2228 current last train which stops at every lamppost in the Hope Valley and takes 2hours 12 minutes to reach Nottingham.

I assume about 2145 in place of the current 5M60 empty stock movement.

Llandudno · 4 Feb 2020

2145 isn’t later than the current last train though!

ChrisC · 5 Feb 2020

grumpyoldman01 said:
Also, for many years the Norwich service which departed Nottingham at about 8.30 started back from Derby, and was shown as a through train.

The 0752 departure from Nottingham to Norwich has for many years started at Mansfield Woodhouse. This has always been advertised as a through train. An elderly relative of mine for many years has regularly used this with an Advance through ticket form Hucknall to Norwich. She would rather have the early 0730 start than change trains at Nottingham! Is this the one that from December will start from Sheffield instead?

bunnahabhain · 5 Feb 2020

grumpyoldman01 said:
for many years the Norwich service which departed Nottingham at about 8.30 started back from Derby, and was shown as a through train.

1L04 0835 Nottingham to Norwich currently forms from 2D02 0739 Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham. In future it will take the place of 1B23 0634 Leeds to St Pancras, from Sheffield to Nottingham, presumably maintaining the current calling pattern with the addition (hopefully) of Ilkeston.

WesternLancer · 5 Feb 2020

bunnahabhain said:
1L04 0835 Nottingham to Norwich currently forms from 2D02 0739 Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham. In future it will take the place of 1B23 0634 Leeds to St Pancras, from Sheffield to Nottingham, presumably maintaining the current calling pattern with the addition (hopefully) of Ilkeston.

For that leg north of Nottingham then an HST going over to a 15x type train.

ChrisC · 5 Feb 2020

bunnahabhain said:
1L04 0835 Nottingham to Norwich currently forms from 2D02 0739 Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham. In future it will take the place of 1B23 0634 Leeds to St Pancras, from Sheffield to Nottingham, presumably maintaining the current calling pattern with the addition (hopefully) of Ilkeston.

I presume then that the earlier 0707 departure from Mansfield Woodhouse will continue to be an advertised through train to Norwich.

LowLevel · 5 Feb 2020

ChrisC said:
The 0752 departure from Nottingham to Norwich has for many years started at Mansfield Woodhouse. This has always been advertised as a through train. An elderly relative of mine for many years has regularly used this with an Advance through ticket form Hucknall to Norwich. She would rather have the early 0730 start than change trains at Nottingham! Is this the one that from December will start from Sheffield instead?

I believe the intention is to discontinue the through service. Numbers using it as such are low single figures and it really needs to be strengthened to 3 carriages, having it as a through service makes that more difficult and also affects the schedule. The train is frequently all seats taken and standing by Kirkby and crush loaded by Hucknall. The priority is to improve the commuter service on the RHL rather than worry about a through service that only exists for operational reasons.

edwin_m · 5 Feb 2020

bunnahabhain said:
1L04 0835 Nottingham to Norwich currently forms from 2D02 0739 Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham. In future it will take the place of 1B23 0634 Leeds to St Pancras, from Sheffield to Nottingham, presumably maintaining the current calling pattern with the addition (hopefully) of Ilkeston.

WesternLancer said:
For that leg north of Nottingham then an HST going over to a 15x type train.

As part of the long-term EMR regional network I would expect a 170. The Ilkeston stop is a valuable benefit as it's prime commuting time for Nottingham, but the current HST can't stop because of lack of grandfather rights to use the short platform. I suppose if they have an 80x unit that isn't doing anything else they might send it up to Sheffield to run this service (and I presume they have SDO so could call at Ilkeston). But if they were going to do that they probably wouldn't have told people the through service was being discontinued.

It sounds like this and any other similar peak extras will be the only EMR services using the EMR-operated stations at Ilkeston, Langley Mill and Alfreton.

raetiamann · 5 Feb 2020

grumpyoldman01 said:
We're talking at cross purposes.

I appreciate what the current proposals for December 2021 are, but my question relates to EMR's proposals for December 2020.

The December 2020 timetable change consultation leaflet available on EMR stations states that "An early morning Norwich service will now start from Sheffield instead of Nottingham" and "Evening services will now run through from Norwich to Sheffield to create more through journey opportunities . . . "; it also states that there will be "An additional late night service from Manchester Piccadilly to Nottingham". Nothing really is added to these statements when the on-line consultation document is viewed.

Hence my question; will these trains go via the Erewash or via Derby?

These two services will likely replace the St Pancras ~ Leeds HST workings via the Erewash Valley route

bunnahabhain · 5 Feb 2020

edwin_m said:
As part of the long-term EMR regional network I would expect a 170. The Ilkeston stop is a valuable benefit as it's prime commuting time for Nottingham, but the current HST can't stop because of lack of grandfather rights to use the short platform. I suppose if they have an 80x unit that isn't doing anything else they might send it up to Sheffield to run this service (and I presume they have SDO so could call at Ilkeston). But if they were going to do that they probably wouldn't have told people the through service was being discontinued.

It sounds like this and any other similar peak extras will be the only EMR services using the EMR-operated stations at Ilkeston, Langley Mill and Alfreton.

There will be no EMR Regional services between Nottingham and Sheffield come December 2021 if the Liverpool to Norwich route is transferred to another operator. There's still no news on this yet.

edwin_m · 5 Feb 2020

bunnahabhain said:
There will be no EMR Regional services between Nottingham and Sheffield come December 2021 if the Liverpool to Norwich route is transferred to another operator. There's still no news on this yet.

Is the extra Sheffield-Nottingham service proposed for 2020 supposed to go to the other operator with the Liverpool trains when that route transfers?

bunnahabhain · 5 Feb 2020

edwin_m said:
Is the extra Sheffield-Nottingham service proposed for 2020 supposed to go to the other operator with the Liverpool trains when that route transfers?

I would assume so, I have no idea, no plans have been announced. This service is purely to replace the Intercity service which will cease to run on that part of the route.

grumpyoldman01 · 5 Feb 2020

Last time I caught the 08.30ish Norwich service from Nottingham it started from platform 2 - I guess it must have been about five years ago.

I used it quite a few times before that last trip, it always departed from platform 2, and the HST from Leeds used platform 3 and arrived before the Norwich service left; on every occasion I saw it, a lot of passengers alighted at Nottingham - and I mean a lot. Does anyone know if it is still so heavily used as an inbound commuter service to Nottingham? My perception of the numbers I saw was that they were far too many for a single 156 or 158

LowLevel · 5 Feb 2020

grumpyoldman01 said:
Last time I caught the 08.30ish Norwich service from Nottingham it started from platform 2 - I guess it must have been about five years ago.

I used it quite a few times before that last trip, it always departed from platform 2, and the HST from Leeds used platform 3 and arrived before the Norwich service left; on every occasion I saw it, a lot of passengers alighted at Nottingham - and I mean a lot. Does anyone know if it is still so heavily used as an inbound commuter service to Nottingham? My perception of the numbers I saw was that they were far too many for a single 156 or 158

When the Matlock Newark service was introduced the diagram changed so the 0739 off Woodhouse formed the 0835 Norwich and became a 158. Prior to that I think it formed the 0840 Skegness.

IamTrainsYT · 6 Feb 2020

Killingworth said:
I heard someone else claim the same near Ilkeston yesterday. I travelled from Liverpool in one of two 153s with a 156 a fortnight ago. The blue colour scheme may make it appear as if they're all 153s instead of the 2x158s we'd got used to.

I was not sure if it was my eyes playing up but I thought I saw 4 153s the other day from my train. I must have!

Killingworth · 6 Feb 2020

This morning's 1R52 6.35 Nottingham to Liverpool seems to have decided to take up residence at Dore & Totley for 45 minutes if RTT is correct. All services were at stop on Hope Valley.

IamTrainsYT · 6 Feb 2020

Killingworth said:
This morning's 1R52 6.35 Nottingham to Liverpool seems to have decided to take up residence at Dore & Totley for 45 minutes if RTT is correct. All services were at stop on Hope Valley.

Trains seem to be running on time now apart from one 118L freight train

IamTrainsYT · 6 Feb 2020

1R52 showing as cancelled fully https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C64568/2020-02-06/detailed

LowLevel · 6 Feb 2020

Broken down, showing as a door fault.

Killingworth · 6 Feb 2020

LowLevel said:
Broken down, showing as a door fault.

Curious that it now shows as cancelled throughout bacuse it certainly was showing as at platform having arrived only about 4 minutes late at Dore. Not a good spot to sit down.

IamTrainsYT · 6 Feb 2020

Railcam shows it as cancelled at dore https://railcam.uk/rcdata/RCData2_detail.php?r=S&tid=551R52M606

LowLevel · 6 Feb 2020

Killingworth said:
Curious that it now shows as cancelled throughout bacuse it certainly was showing as at platform having arrived only about 4 minutes late at Dore. Not a good spot to sit down.

That just depends on how control input the cancellation, they're meant to put it in as terminated short of destination but some controllers use cancelled throughout by mistake. Door fault on 156473 and 153384 - our ancient beasts strike again :oops:

railfan100 · 6 Feb 2020

I just do not get it how in terms of transport strategy it makes sense to divide a useful East to West service, at the same time East to West Cambridge to Oxford is going to cost billions. It is a useful service for those that wish to travel a fair distance. People from Colchester\Ipswich\Harwich\Cambridge would have to undergo an additional change to get to Manchester or Liverpool when this takes place. E.g. Ipswich to Peterborough then a further change at Nottingham, total madness and lack of strategy to me.... Anything is better than going via the London mess and having to cross the capital it is stressful and time consuming.

Ianno87 · 6 Feb 2020

railfan100 said:
I just do not get it how in terms of transport strategy it makes sense to divide a useful East to West service, at the same time East to West Cambridge to Oxford is going to cost billions. It is a useful service for those that wish to travel a fair distance. People from Colchester\Ipswich\Harwich\Cambridge would have to undergo an additional change to get to Manchester or Liverpool when this takes place. E.g. Ipswich to Peterborough then a further change at Nottingham, total madness and lack of strategy to me.... Anything is better than going via the London mess and having to cross the capital it is stressful and time consuming.

Because Liverpool to Norwich has become far too slow (relative to speed inceases on other routes) to be a useful East West service. The number of cross-Nottingham passengers on a typical service is very low. Last time I did it, there were 3 of us in the carriage. Tail truly wagging the dog.

railfan100 · 6 Feb 2020

Ianno87 said:
Because Liverpool to Norwich has become far too slow (relative to speed inceases on other routes) to be a useful East West service.

When I did it before Christmas around 35 plus people were going through Nottingham towards the North West, the person next to me was making a trip from Cambridge to Manchester if the service is cut they need to make an additional change. Still do not get it, there are measures that could be taken to speed the service up a little, but going via London is such an awful experience.

Killingworth · 6 Feb 2020

The reason for the split is the difficulty in ensuring reliability over the entire route. Holdups around Liverpool, Castlefield, the Hope Valley (well illustrated this morning), and at Sheffield to the west, then ECML and over the flatter lands towards Norwich in the east.

In an East Midlands presentation a couple of years ago it was stated that 25% of all their delays on all their routes were on this one. One hourly service out of all the more frequent St Pancras and other regional routes.

The Dore bottleneck has been down for fixing since before 2005 and won't be until 2023. Castlegate some time, ever?

It must be a nightmare to manage. When.operated by 158s its quite a pleasant journey. The current worn out 153s and 156s give the service a feel of impending death at present. Users of other Hope Valley services weren't happy to be kept waiting for three quarters of an hour today - neither passengers nor freight!

If it could be made much more punctual, and always operated by clean and reliable modern trains, passenger numbers all the way along the route would improve.

bramling · 6 Feb 2020

railfan100 said:
When I did it before Christmas around 35 plus people were going through Nottingham towards the North West, the person next to me was making a trip from Cambridge to Manchester if the service is cut they need to make an additional change. Still do not get it, there are measures that could be taken to speed the service up a little, but going via London is such an awful experience.

Why so awful?

For a journey like Cambridge to Manchester it would be 50 minutes on a non-stop EMU which will be an 8 or 12 car train, then one stop on the Underground or a reasonably easy 10-minute walk, followed by two hours on a 9 or 11 car Pendolino.

Compared to several hours on an overcrowded 2-car DMU I’d say going via London is pretty preferable.

cle · 6 Feb 2020

Perhaps there is room for a fast service some day - but it would need to avoid Sheffield and skip many stops.

For example: Cambridge - Peterborough - ( - Leicester -) Nottingham - Chesterfield - Stockport - Manchester, and done - an hourly fast on top of the hourly splits.

Jonny · 6 Feb 2020

Killingworth said:
The reason for the split is the difficulty in ensuring reliability over the entire route. Holdups around Liverpool, Castlegate, the Hope Valley (well illustrated this morning), and at Sheffield to the west, then ECML and over the flatter lands towards Norwich in the east.

I presume you mean the Castlefield Corridor (i.e. through Manchester Oxford Road)? If so, making the western final end to be Manchester Piccadilly - and the bay platforms at that - might help with reliability on a strategic level.

Also the CLC line is 85mph max, making the use of trains formed at least partly of 153s/156s a potential issue if pathed for a (90 mph) Class 158. The turnaround capability at Piccadilly could therefore be planned for, or used as at least a reserve option if 75mph stock has to be used.

Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

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