• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

BBC: "Train emergency alarm delays rise as more passengers call for help"

Status
Not open for further replies.

tofl

Member
Joined
23 Nov 2018
Messages
39
There is no information displayed to passengers that pressing the alarm button will require the train to stop, the driver to walk back through the train to reset, and then walk back through the train again to continue. In these circumstances it's not unreasonable in the slightest for passengers to think the alarm button is just a way to contact on-train staff in an emergency situation so that they can tan take the appropriate action in the circumstances - which would certainly include calling ahead to arrange an ambulance to meet the train at the next appropriate location.

Passengers cannot be expected to know which services have guards and which do not (and if they do whether they are in the same portion of the train as they are) or what the next suitable location for an ambulance to meet the train is (while it's not unreasonable to expect passengers to know what the train's next scheduled calling point is, it is not reasonable for them to know where they are in relation to any intermediate stations, whether any of them are suitable for an ambulance meeting a train, and if they are whether the train was scheduled to pass through on a line adjacent to a platform).

Really there needs to be two options:
1. There is an emergency situation that means this train (almost certainly) needs to stop before the next scheduled calling point.
2. There is an emergency situation that on-train staff need to know about but which does not require the train to be stopped right now.

Yes indeed, that's the point I was trying to get at. Doubtless it would be abused/used incorrectly as things always are, but given that there are some people left in the world who think about their actions, clearly presenting these two options doesn't seem too hard and even if used only sometimes would improve matters. I think there is scope for some passenger education - again it won't sink in to everyone but some will listen. We are bombarded with announcements, some useful, others less so - I think there's room to fit in something in this area.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

KieronQuinn

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2018
Messages
18
On the Metrolink trams in Manchester there are multiple alarm buttons that are constantly being activated accidentally, because someone decided that putting them at shoulder height by the doors where people lean when it's sardined was a great idea. The system in place on the trams is different though - it rings the driver who can then talk back immediately, even while driving it seems. They now always ask "do you need help" and are almost always met with either silence (didn't know they pressed it, or are ignoring it) or someone politely saying sorry. I've pressed it once by mistake, it's pretty easy to do.

Are train drivers required to stop before being able to talk via the alarm units or do they simply not have the ability to talk over them on trains? It would make it far better to know what's actually happened before the train actually comes to a halt if needed, in the case of the train in the tunnel they could have actually told them to hold on until the station, and maybe even been able to ask for any medically trained passengers to assist in the meantime.
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,585
Are none of these alarm/aid buttons not set up so you have to press them for 'x' seconds before they actually activate? At work in our lifts there are alarm buttons but you have to press them for 3 seconds before they'll connect you up with an emergency operator
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,399
Location
UK
Then someone is being dragged, passenger on the train pulls the passcom but it doesn't show as emergency and that person gets their arm torn off by a signal stanchion or tunnel or similar.
They then bleed out on the trackside before anyone can help them.

Remember this was in reference to a 700.

If you had a call for aid sound an alarm and display 'call for aid' it would achieve the same thing but without the crossover with a blanket big red flashy button for everything.

Call for aids do not, on the stock I drive, activate the brakes. You can freely drive along with the alarm sounding. Even with a passcom, you are allowed to override the brake activation (unless in a station)

This evenings activation was 'accidental'. I use inverted comma's because the button is behind a flap that is magnetically held closed. :/
 

Spartacus

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2009
Messages
2,907
Are none of these alarm/aid buttons not set up so you have to press them for 'x' seconds before they actually activate? At work in our lifts there are alarm buttons but you have to press them for 3 seconds before they'll connect you up with an emergency operator

Trouble is that if something’s kicking off or a door has sprung open you might not be able to hold it for 3 seconds, or be willing to. In a lift it’s probably difficult to be much beyond arms reach of the button for 3 seconds while you’re in it.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,448
Location
London
Call for aid also known as passenger communication alarms ("passcom"). In SE metro world quite a lot are done by accident in accessible compartments or by youths messing around having a laugh.
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,827
Call for aid also known as passenger communication alarms ("passcom"). In SE metro world quite a lot are done by accident in accessible compartments or by youths messing around having a laugh.
Call for aid buttons aren't the same as passcoms. The latter stop the train (with an override on some trains), the former just make their presence known by various means until someone's able to try to speak to whoever's pressed it (if they're still there).
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,753
Location
Epsom
On the Metrolink trams in Manchester there are multiple alarm buttons that are constantly being activated accidentally, because someone decided that putting them at shoulder height by the doors where people lean when it's sardined was a great idea.

There is a similar situation in the SWR class 455s - there are alarms at shoulder height near the doors which are in exactly the right position for people sitting in the longitudinal seats there to lean against without knowing it. I managed to do it once... found the guard at the next station ( I was in the end carriage ) and apologised, to be told not to worry as it happens several times a day and they're used to it...
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,448
Location
London
Call for aid buttons aren't the same as passcoms. The latter stop the train (with an override on some trains), the former just make their presence known by various means until someone's able to try to speak to whoever's pressed it (if they're still there).

The article refers to "passenger communication, door and emergency alarms". They react in different ways on different rolling stock obviously but what I quoted will definitely be part of the delay minutes.
 

kc_

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2019
Messages
132
Location
North West England
Are none of these alarm/aid buttons not set up so you have to press them for 'x' seconds before they actually activate? At work in our lifts there are alarm buttons but you have to press them for 3 seconds before they'll connect you up with an emergency operator

On the Northern 331 CAFs, the sign near the passcom says "hold for 3 seconds to cancel when ringing".
 

Backroom_boy

Member
Joined
28 Dec 2019
Messages
281
Location
London
Then someone is being dragged, passenger on the train pulls the passcom but it doesn't show as emergency and that person gets their arm torn off by a signal stanchion or tunnel or similar.
They then bleed out on the trackside before anyone can help them.

How about its rebranded as a 'trapped in the door alarm'; I cant think of any other circumstances where applying the brakes automatically will help.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,635
How about its rebranded as a 'trapped in the door alarm'; I cant think of any other circumstances where applying the brakes automatically will help.
Eschede?

If the passenger had immediately triggered the brake the accident would have been avoided or it's effect significantly reduced
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
Perhaps passengers need to be better educated that in DOO land for example, there is NO second person on the train

I can't see RDG- campaigning mercilessly for DOO- agreeing to that. Passengers might clock on the real effect of DOO!

It's amazing, isn't it, how passcom activations and self-evacuations increase as staff availability and visibility decrease.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
I can see why if someone collapsed (even if it was just low blood sugar from not eating or drinking) someone else would not hesitate to use the alarm and want to summon help. They won't know the cause and could think it is far more serious.

It is then rather annoying that the driver cannot reset the alarm in the cav and proceed without walking back.

By doing so there might now be the expectation that the driver can or will help, when going to the next station (but hopefully with help now on its way) is necessary - and there has now been a 3 or 4 minute delay.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top