Is it legal for Sussex Coaches to refuse to accept ENCTS bus passes on their N8 bus route?

I just had a question about the legality of refusing to accept ENCTS bus passes.

Sussex Coaches currently operate route N8 which runs six journeys a week as follows:

FRIDAY:
21:45 Horsham to Brighton 22:49

SATURDAY:
00:55 Brighton to Horsham 01:57
03:17 Brighton to Horsham 04:19
21:45 Horsham to Brighton 22:49

SUNDAY:
00:55 Brighton to Horsham 01:57
03:17 Brighton to Horsham 04:19

Now they refuse to accept ENCTS bus passes for any journeys on this route. On all six of the journeys they are refused. ENCTS bus pass holders must pay the full fare to travel for any journey on this route.

I would like to know whether it is actually legal for Sussex Coaches to refuse ENCTS bus passes on this route? Considering that these passes are valid between 09:30 and 23:00 on Mondays to Fridays and at any time on Saturdays to Sundays and all route N8 journeys run within these times i would have thought that they would have to be accepted? Is there any exceptions or ways that this is legal to refuse them? Or is Sussex Coaches illegally refusing these ENCTS bus passes?

I use the N8 regularly and there are often ENCTS bus pass holders who try to board (especially for local journeys like Horsham to Southwater or Patcham to Brighton and especially on the earlier Southbound journey) and they are always refused. Sussex Coaches have confirmed that this is correct when i have asked them and that these ENCTS bus passes are not valid on this service.

On another note the price of this bus is extortionate. It costs £10.00 flat fare Single ticket (and there no Return tickets available) meaning it costs £20.00 if you need to make a Return journey (but surprisingly this bus service is always quite busy) which is a rip off compared to the train. Even if you want to travel one stop then it will still cost you a £10.00 flat fare Single ticket. It is hilarious as people always hail the bus on the busy urban Patcham to Brighton section (where buses run every five or ten minutes) and the driver tells them it is £10.00 for a five or ten minute journey they want to make. They often think the driver is joking. But anyway this is a different matter to the ENCTS issue and i understand they can legally charge these extortionate fares unfortunately.

If anyone knows anything regarding the legality of them refusing ENCTS bus passes on all these route N8 bus journeys then that would be interesting to hear.

Local councils can agree an exemption on certain services for specific reasons (tourist related services being one). I'd contact the department of the council that deals with ENCTS passes and ask them if this refusal has been agreed and, if not, they should be able to deal with the issue.

In Scotland, one of the exemptions specified is premium fare night services.

Confused as to why it's a rip off! What train fare are you comparing it to? I don't think there are any services you can compare the fares with?

As, essentially, it's a night service, I wonder if they have got it designated as a 'special' service where ENCTS doesn't need to be accepted. Have you asked them to explain their reasoning ?

gingerheid said:

Confused as to why it's a rip off! What train fare are you comparing it to? I don't think there are any services you can compare the fares with?

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I’d say that £10 for a single from Patcham to Brighton is a rip off, literally cheaper to get a taxi into town!

Samuel88 said:

I’d say that £10 for a single from Patcham to Brighton is a rip off, literally cheaper to get a taxi into town!

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It's clearly intended for people going from Horsham to Brighton. Lots of people don't offer local fares where they want to run a faster premium service between large towns.

The question is surely whether £10 is a fair fare for a Brighton - Horsham night bus? I would say it is.

There isn't a comparable train service, but the closest that there is would be £24 return, isn't direct, takes longer overall, and doesn't offer suitable times for a night out.

The bus seems reasonable.

Samuel88 said:

I’d say that £10 for a single from Patcham to Brighton is a rip off, literally cheaper to get a taxi into town!

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It's available, you don't have to take it.

Robertj21a said:

It's available, you don't have to take it.

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No excuse for a rip-off service, imagine if for example an airline charged £10,000 to escape from China, there’d be an uproar but hey, the service is there you don’t have to take it

Samuel88 said:

I’d say that £10 for a single from Patcham to Brighton is a rip off, literally cheaper to get a taxi into town!

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A flat fare on a night bus is common, it's clearly not designed for local journeys. There are plenty of local alternatives.

Premium night buses are a valid exemption from ENCTS and you won't find that many night buses where the passes are valid.

If the council wont pay they can refuse to accept them. Its like the Red Arrow scenario where both authorities at either end of the route refuse ti pay for their use. Legally a precedent has been set.

Tetchytyke said:

A flat fare on a night bus is common, it's clearly not designed for local journeys. There are plenty of local alternatives.

Premium night buses are a valid exemption from ENCTS and you won't find that many night buses where the passes are valid.

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If it were £10.00 return I would agree that would be fair, but for a company not to offer a return fare is just a Micky take. Many on here are far too forgiving of bus and train operators...

Samuel88 said:

If it were £10.00 return I would agree that would be fair,

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It's a flat fare from Horsham, and £20 return doesn't seem that unreasonable for that distance at 3am. There will be a point closer to Brighton where the flat fare becomes expensive. So what? Catch the local night bus (who also don't do returns) instead.

Tetchytyke said:

It's a flat fare from Horsham, and £20 return doesn't seem that unreasonable for that distance at 3am. There will be a point closer to Brighton where the flat fare becomes expensive. So what? Catch the local night bus (who also don't do returns) instead.

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But on Brighton and Hove their all area day ticket is valid on night buses. I bet if it was Stagecoach or B&H running this route everyone on here would be up in arms at the price!

The equivalent Anytime rail single is £13.40 from Horsham. £10 is thus "cheap" in comparison, even if there were trains at 3am. A return is £19.20. How much would a taxi from Horsham to Brighton cost? Rather more than £20 return, I suspect!

As many others have said, the simple fact is this is a premium night service, and thus totally acceptable to be exempted from ENCTS pass use (provided done so correctly). The ENCTS pass was not designed to allow late night revelling... the fact that some journeys run within the overall period of validity do not mean it is exempt.

Do B&H accept ENCTS passes on their night buses? There is no equivalent daytime service on the N8, so Sussex Coaches couldn't accept an equivalent day ticket.

duncombec said:

The equivalent Anytime rail single is £13.40 from Horsham. £10 is thus "cheap" in comparison, even if there were trains at 3am. A return is £19.20. How much would a taxi from Horsham to Brighton cost? Rather more than £20 return, I suspect!

As many others have said, the simple fact is this is a premium night service, and thus totally acceptable to be exempted from ENCTS pass use (provided done so correctly). The ENCTS pass was not designed to allow late night revelling... the fact that some journeys run within the overall period of validity do not mean it is exempt.

Do B&H accept ENCTS passes on their night buses? There is no equivalent daytime service on the N8, so Sussex Coaches couldn't accept an equivalent day ticket.

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Yes B&H do accept ENCTS passes during the weekends, I’ve often used my freedom pass to travel from the station out to the Uni on Saturday and Sunday mornings. Also Sussex coaches both sell and accept the Discovery ticket.

Isn't the issue here these journeys:

FRIDAY:
21:45 Horsham to Brighton 22:49

SATURDAY:
21:45 Horsham to Brighton 22:49

which by ENCTS definition are not night buses?

Bletchleyite said:

Isn't the issue here these journeys:

FRIDAY:
21:45 Horsham to Brighton 22:49

SATURDAY:
21:45 Horsham to Brighton 22:49

which by ENCTS definition are not night buses?

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I'm assuming that the service has been designated as one that the council is not prepared to consider for reimbursement as it is 'special' (definition unsure !). Presumably, the operator, or council, can confirm.

Why would Ethel and Doris consider using a bus at 3am anyway? It seems designed for the student / nightlife market.

I believe certain routes can be exempt from ENCTS. Another example is tourist routes in the summer.

peterblue said:

Why would Ethel and Doris consider using a bus at 3am anyway? It seems designed for the student / nightlife market.

I believe certain routes can be exempt from ENCTS. Another example is tourist routes in the summer.

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Maybe not Ethel or Doris but I have a Disabled pass and regularly use night buses to get back home after a night out with friends

peterblue said:

Why would Ethel and Doris consider using a bus at 3am anyway? It seems designed for the student / nightlife market.

I believe certain routes can be exempt from ENCTS. Another example is tourist routes in the summer.

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Don't think the issue is the 3am departures but the 21.45 departure

Bletchleyite said:

Isn't the issue here these journeys:

FRIDAY:
21:45 Horsham to Brighton 22:49

SATURDAY:
21:45 Horsham to Brighton 22:49

which by ENCTS definition are not night buses?

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Clearly the timetable is a one bus service, with these out and 2 buses return in early hours
(I am guessing it runs back empty to Brighton before second return journey)

I wonder if it has an exemption because they are a linked service, or is not designated a local service

Extract from The Travel Concessions (Eligible Services) (Amendment) Order 2009, listing what can be exempted:
"4.-(1)(e) the fare for the service includes a special amenity element."
"4.-(4) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(e) a fare is to be regarded as including a special amenity element if it is significantly high in relation to the general level of fares for comparable journeys.”

As the daytime fare on the Stagecoach route is £5.20 single/£8.20 return, then the Sussex Coaches fare would easily seem to meet the "significantly high" criteria listed above.

Well spotted. Sussex Coaches clearly understand the legalities.

Robertj21a said:

Well spotted. Sussex Coaches clearly understand the legalities.

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I expect that the Local Authority(s) involved in funding ENCTS in this area will have looked at the high fare, and the consequent cost of re-imbursement, and will have declared it outside the scheme in terms of the legislation quoted above.

Basically this has "scam" written all over it. A company offers a ridiculous fare, the local authority don't want to pay the agreed percentage given to normal operators, and the company can claim they are somehow offering a "special amenity". These is clearly NO "special amenity" element being offered here other than being ripped off and if this becomes better known it might start to spread to other parts of the country.

For example, I live near Stagecoach route 106 from Kendal to Penrith in Cumbria - if Stagecoach decided they were carrying too many elderly passengers, or didn't like the returns given from the county council, they could up the single fare to £10, bar ENCTS passes and there would be nothing we could do about it, apart from cause an almighty stink in the press and the council chamber.

And that is what the OP or other concerned people who live in the area should do. Contact the local press and explain that pensioners are being denied their rights, for example to travel from Brighton to Horsham during the day and return in the evening by the N8 service bus (it is clearly a stopping service not an express). Get the council to explain the rationale - which may be what Robertj21a has suggested. I wouldn't hold out much hope at getting any decent action from either a Conservative council or a Conservative MP, so I would suggest also writing to Caroline Lucas, the Green MP for Brighton Pavilion, as the route runs into Brighton and this is exactly the kind of thing which is anti-environmental. Obviously giving a service an "N" prefix and claiming it's a night service and ineligible for ENCTS would be out of the question, 21:45 is well within the time limits of the scheme as indeed are all the weekend buses.

neilmc said:

the company can claim they are somehow offering a "special amenity".

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Night buses are a special amenity and are exempt from ENCTS. There is no definition of what constitutes a night bus, but a service significantly after the end of a daytime service may well count. Other night buses are exempt from ENCTS, even on weekends where there are otherwise no time restrictions on ENCTS use.

Clearly neither the operator nor the local authority want ENCTS to be valid on the outward positioning move. So where the "scam" is I'm quite unsure.

There's always the Stagecoach 17 if Mabel and Doris want their freebie. The last one is at 1733, but there's your special amenity.

Not really sure why this would be considered a 'scam'.

I don't see it as a scam either. Although Brighton&Hove do not, many other night buses elsewhere offer comparatively higher fares. The £20 return isn't a scam when you compare it with the price of a taxi. It's designed at the nightlife market not for Ethel and Doris with their shopping. Other special services such as tourist routes are excluded from the ENCTS scheme also.

neilmc said:

Basically this has "scam" written all over it. A company offers a ridiculous fare, the local authority don't want to pay the agreed percentage given to normal operators, and the company can claim they are somehow offering a "special amenity". These is clearly NO "special amenity" element being offered here other than being ripped off and if this becomes better known it might start to spread to other parts of the country.

For example, I live near Stagecoach route 106 from Kendal to Penrith in Cumbria - if Stagecoach decided they were carrying too many elderly passengers, or didn't like the returns given from the county council, they could up the single fare to £10, bar ENCTS passes and there would be nothing we could do about it, apart from cause an almighty stink in the press and the council chamber.

And that is what the OP or other concerned people who live in the area should do. Contact the local press and explain that pensioners are being denied their rights, for example to travel from Brighton to Horsham during the day and return in the evening by the N8 service bus (it is clearly a stopping service not an express). Get the council to explain the rationale - which may be what Robertj21a has suggested. I wouldn't hold out much hope at getting any decent action from either a Conservative council or a Conservative MP, so I would suggest also writing to Caroline Lucas, the Green MP for Brighton Pavilion, as the route runs into Brighton and this is exactly the kind of thing which is anti-environmental. Obviously giving a service an "N" prefix and claiming it's a night service and ineligible for ENCTS would be out of the question, 21:45 is well within the time limits of the scheme as indeed are all the weekend buses.

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I can't agree with you at all. This is, essentially, a nightclubbers bus for those who live in the inland Sussex villages and want to go in to Brighton (a key centre of entertainment for the whole area) on one or two nights a week. I would guess that the number of people holding ENCTS passes who want to use it is truly minimal. The operator is not going to be making loads of money from anybody other than the target audience - for whom there is little/no realistic alternative.

It's an operator who has simply seen a market and is catering for it accordingly. ENCTS is a red herring.