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London Bus Fare Zones

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class717

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(not really rail related, sorry)

At a few stops on Church Street in Edmonton, you can see where there used to be the words "bus zone 4" or "5" (might not be the exact words, but you get the idea) on the pole that holds up the bus stop sign, very faded now.

Did buses ever have zones? Was this some sort of trial or something? Will take a pic next time I'm nearby.
 
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JonathanH

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Yes, prior to London adopting a flat fare structure, the zones which remain in place on the railway and underground applied to buses. The zone boundaries used to be shown on bus maps.

This was then changed to just having a higher fare in zone 1 - at some point in the early 2000s they made travelcards of any zone combination valid on all buses.

Since January 2004, it has just been one zone - https://themissinggraph.wordpress.c...the-london-tube-bus-fares-in-the-last-decade/
 

Snow1964

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Originally the travelcard (then called Capitalcard) had a central zone (a West End, a City and an overlap. This later became zone 1

Then there were concentric zones 2, 3, 4, 5 but buses used a common zone 3 (covering 3, 4, 5 and often marked as 3a, 3b, 3c).

At some stage (forgotten when but think it was 1990s) zone 5 got split into 5 and 6. But when you look on a map with the zones (a proper scale map, not diagrammatic version) you will see the boundaries zig zag around rather than form a series of ovals.

As you have discovered there are a few places where the old fare stage markers still exist on the poles, but most went when concrete poles were replaced by aluminium ones with the illuminated timetable panels (there is a small blue button that can be pressed to light them)
 

talldave

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Whilst we're heading off into off topic trivia, I was amazed that my other half (a lifelong Londoner) had never realised that request stops have inverted colours (ie: a white roundel on a red background)!
 

JBuchananGB

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A moderator could probably move this thread to the Buses and Coaches section of the forum.

Born and bred in Romford, I certainly knew from a young age that white on red meant request stop, and red on white meant compulsory stop.

But I don’t know if the concept of compulsory bus stop, I.e a stop at which all buses stop without being hailed, or without the bell having been rung, exists anywhere outside London.
 

TUC

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It is very irritating when you are watching a TV show or film set nowhere near London and the London-based director has put TfL roundels on the bus stops.
 

Ethano92

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But I don’t know if the concept of compulsory bus stop, I.e a stop at which all buses stop without being hailed, or without the bell having been rung, exists anywhere outside London.

I don't understand the concept within London itself. There are stops where there will always be someone getting on without fail for the majority of the day, such as in a town centre, at busy stops such as that I understand the bus stopping regardless. At other stops however, this isn't the case and buses, understandably don't stop unless someone shows intention of getting on (not necessarily sticking their arm out but standing at the kerb, staring down the bus etc). What's the point in stops such as these, most people don't realise a difference from my anecdotal knowledge.
 

Samuel88

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Originally the travelcard (then called Capitalcard) had a central zone (a West End, a City and an overlap. This later became zone 1

Then there were concentric zones 2, 3, 4, 5 but buses used a common zone 3 (covering 3, 4, 5 and often marked as 3a, 3b, 3c).

At some stage (forgotten when but think it was 1990s) zone 5 got split into 5 and 6. But when you look on a map with the zones (a proper scale map, not diagrammatic version) you will see the boundaries zig zag around rather than form a series of ovals.

As you have discovered there are a few places where the old fare stage markers still exist on the poles, but most went when concrete poles were replaced by aluminium ones with the illuminated timetable panels (there is a small blue button that can be pressed to light them)

There were only four zones for buses, zones 1,2,3 and 4 although in reality there were only two zones as you could only get a bus pass for all the zones or the outer 3 zones
 

Ianno87

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I don't understand the concept within London itself. There are stops where there will always be someone getting on without fail for the majority of the day, such as in a town centre, at busy stops such as that I understand the bus stopping regardless. At other stops however, this isn't the case and buses, understandably don't stop unless someone shows intention of getting on (not necessarily sticking their arm out but standing at the kerb, staring down the bus etc). What's the point in stops such as these, most people don't realise a difference from my anecdotal knowledge.

Pretty sure that basically nobody realises there's a difference!
 
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I don't understand the concept within London itself. There are stops where there will always be someone getting on without fail for the majority of the day, such as in a town centre, at busy stops such as that I understand the bus stopping regardless. At other stops however, this isn't the case and buses, understandably don't stop unless someone shows intention of getting on (not necessarily sticking their arm out but standing at the kerb, staring down the bus etc). What's the point in stops such as these, most people don't realise a difference from my anecdotal knowledge.
Indeed - I'm struggling to see any value in this bizarre idea too.
I'm not familiar with London buses, but if a bus is empty other than one passenger who didn't state their destination when boarding, is a driver expected to pull up and open the doors at every red on white flag even when the stop is deserted just in case that one passenger wants off? This makes sense as a train service but could become rather irritating on a bus. Also passengers on board might need knowledge of whether or not the stop where they wanted off was a red on white or white on red flag inorder to know whether it was necessary to ring the bell.
 

Bletchleyite

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But I don’t know if the concept of compulsory bus stop, I.e a stop at which all buses stop without being hailed, or without the bell having been rung, exists anywhere outside London.

It doesn't exist in London either. All stops now have the same policy, which is that the bus driver must stop if he cannot see for certain that there is nobody there waiting for the bus (which in practice means there is nobody standing there or in the shelter and that can be clearly seen, so no leapfrogging as happens elsewhere), and that you must ring the bell to alight. That is the German system.

In practice, however, people do put their hands out for the bus and "leapfrogging" does go on.
 

Bletchleyite

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Indeed - I'm struggling to see any value in this bizarre idea too.
I'm not familiar with London buses, but if a bus is empty other than one passenger who didn't state their destination when boarding, is a driver expected to pull up and open the doors at every red on white flag even when the stop is deserted just in case that one passenger wants off? This makes sense as a train service but could become rather irritating on a bus. Also passengers on board might need knowledge of whether or not the stop where they wanted off was a red on white or white on red flag inorder to know whether it was necessary to ring the bell.

When the policy existed yes, that was expected. However in practice drivers usually didn't and people used the bell anyway.
 

causton

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It is very irritating when you are watching a TV show or film set nowhere near London and the London-based director has put TfL roundels on the bus stops.

In Hertfordshire (not on or near the TfL border or any TfL services) I've seen temporary bus stops with the TfL roundel on - no idea what the arrangement is or if TfL know that they are being used in Herts or if they are "borrowed" :lol:
 
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When the policy existed yes, that was expected. However in practice drivers usually didn't and people used the bell anyway.
Do you think this policy dated from a bygone age when conductors often dictated whether a driver stopped or not? A bus crew would have thorough knowledge of whether any stop was white on red or red on white therefore no confusion for anyone getting off. As the bus approached a request stop the conductor would look for passengers wanting off and ring the bell to alert the driver. If the bus was approaching a compulsory stop the conductor needn't bother even checking for anyone approaching the platform as the driver would be obliged to stop anyway. In the time saved by not looking for alighting clients, the conductor could continue with other customer care duties. Of course for passengers wanting to travel, they would have no idea whether anybody wanted off an approaching bus or not therefore a signal to the driver would be necessary if waiting at a request flag.
 

Busaholic

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Do you think this policy dated from a bygone age when conductors often dictated whether a driver stopped or not? A bus crew would have thorough knowledge of whether any stop was white on red or red on white therefore no confusion for anyone getting off. As the bus approached a request stop the conductor would look for passengers wanting off and ring the bell to alert the driver. If the bus was approaching a compulsory stop the conductor needn't bother even checking for anyone approaching the platform as the driver would be obliged to stop anyway. In the time saved by not looking for alighting clients, the conductor could continue with other customer care duties. Of course for passengers wanting to travel, they would have no idea whether anybody wanted off an approaching bus or not therefore a signal to the driver would be necessary if waiting at a request flag.
In practice, and depending on the crew, a conductor standing on the platform, or even kneeling on the front downstairs nearside seat, might ring two bells just before the bus got to the stop if he/she could see nobody waiting to get on or off, so the bus would slow but not stop. 'Three bells' meant full up, don't stop. This was double deck etiquette, all rear loading buses. Front entrance single deckers were another matter: there, most conductors merely issued fares and let the driver control everything else.
 

JBuchananGB

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OH, well the world has moved on. One just has to wonder why they continue to put up two different types of flag, one marked REQUEST STOP and the other marked BUS STOP.

For the official position https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/using-buses-in-london

Getting on our bus services
At all our stops in London there is a sign showing the stop name, which routes stop there and in what direction they are heading. Many of our stops also have an information panel showing information about other bus routes in the surrounding area.

Bus drivers always look out for anyone waiting to board a bus. They will give you time to board safely, but once the doors have been closed please let the bus leave safely and wait for the next bus. Visit our live bus arrivals page to find out when the next bus will arrive.

All our buses are accessible. They can be lowered and have ramps for those who need help getting on or off. Once on board please either touch your card or payment device on the yellow reader or show your ticket or pass to the driver. Please move down inside the bus and use all available space and seats including upstairs on double decker buses. There is a wheelchair space available and wheelchair users have priority over this space.

Hail and Ride
Buses operate a Hail and Ride service on some of our routes in outer London. There are no fixed stops so you can signal to the driver that you wish to get on or press the stop button to get off at any safe point along the road. You will be informed when the bus is entering and leaving the Hail and Ride section of the route.

stop-bus_rdax_400x250.jpg

Getting off our bus services
To help customers know where they are on their journeys, next stop information is displayed on the information screens and announced on all of our buses. When your stop is displayed and announced, please press the bell once and in good time. This lets the driver know you intend to get off.
 

MotCO

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It is very irritating when you are watching a TV show or film set nowhere near London and the London-based director has put TfL roundels on the bus stops.

About a year ago I saw an LT dolly stop with roundel in Lewes.
 

Mikey C

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A lot of times these days buses will stop and open their doors at stops, even when there's nobody getting on and off, to regulate the service...
 

Statto

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I just about remember the bus fare zones, they were split into 4 zones, night buses had there own fares, £2 for journeys from zone 1 & 2, 70p if the journey was in zone 4, most day tickets were not valid on night buses either, plus night buses started a lot earlier than now, some night buses started 10.30-11pm.
 

transmanche

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Originally the travelcard (then called Capitalcard) had a central zone (a West End, a City and an overlap. This later became zone 1
To be pedantic, the Travelcard is older than the Capitalcard.
  • The Travelcard was launched in 1983 and was an LTE/LRT product allowing travel on buses, tubes (and sections of BR with dual availability, such as Kings Cross-Finsbury Park).
  • The Capitalcard came along in 1985 and included travel on BR services, but at a higher price than the equivalent Travelcard. At this time, the zones were numbered 1, 2, 3a, 3b, & 3c. Buses were only split into three zones (1, 2 & 3) so a Travelcard or Capitalcard valid in either zone 3a, 3b or 3c could be used throughout zone 3 on buses.
  • In 1989, the two products were merged into one using the Travelcard name. I think at this point, the zones were renumbered as 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5.
  • In 1991, zone 5 was split in two. On the tube and trains, you now had zones 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6. Buses were split into 4 zones - 1, 2, 3 & 4(5,6). A Travelcard valid in either zone 4, 5 or 6 could be used throughout zone 4(5,6) on buses.
The City and West End zones (with a large overlap) pre-date the Travelcard. They were introduced in 1981 as part of the GLC's Fairs Fare initiative. They were merged (becoming zone 1) when the Travelcard was introduced.
 

infobleep

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I just about remember the bus fare zones, they were split into 4 zones, night buses had there own fares, £2 for journeys from zone 1 & 2, 70p if the journey was in zone 4, most day tickets were not valid on night buses either, plus night buses started a lot earlier than now, some night buses started 10.30-11pm.
Whilst I don't remember the zones I do remember paying extra for a night bus I think that was on top of the travel card I had.

In Oxford, in contrast, a bus ticket was valid was 24 hours. It still is.
 

Snow1964

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A lot of times these days buses will stop and open their doors at stops, even when there's nobody getting on and off, to regulate the service...

And a lot of it is the headway system, one bus has a delay (or a driver deliberately going slow so he doesn't get another run before break or hometime) then all the following buses sit around. Part of the reason why bus usage is falling as people are fed up with the hanging around extending journey time

One interesting snippet that has come out recently is waiting at a bus stop for more than 2 minutes is illegal (apart from boarding/alighting) under the bus stop clearway regulations, but even on camera controlled bus lanes it appears not to be enforced
 

JBuchananGB

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I can remember when at certain stops the bus conductor had to punch a card in a time clock at the stop as evidence of the time the bus called at the stop. Station Road Gidea Park, and the Bull, Brook Street, Brentwood are two places this happened. This was in the 1960s.
 

Bletchleyite

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And a lot of it is the headway system, one bus has a delay (or a driver deliberately going slow so he doesn't get another run before break or hometime) then all the following buses sit around. Part of the reason why bus usage is falling as people are fed up with the hanging around extending journey time

Much better than the negative effects on bunching.

One interesting snippet that has come out recently is waiting at a bus stop for more than 2 minutes is illegal (apart from boarding/alighting) under the bus stop clearway regulations, but even on camera controlled bus lanes it appears not to be enforced

Only if it is a bus stop clearway. Most of them in my understanding aren't. Unless it's a London speciality, for instance none of the main road stops in MK have any sort of regulations on them, they are just laybys.

However, enforcing that would be stupid even if it was the rule. Buses should not run early, so facility needs to be provided for them to wait for time.
 

transmanche

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Buses should not run early, so facility needs to be provided for them to wait for time.
I don't think @Snow1964 was referring to buses running early, but to the 'maintenance of headway'. Bus controllers in London will aim to keep an even, regular service and prevent bus bunching. This might mean holding a bus for a minute or two to help prevent it from catching up with the one in front.

They do something similar on the Piccadilly line at Finsbury Park. Regular passengers will be familiar with the announcement "we're just being held here to regulate the service".
 

Mojo

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Only if it is a bus stop clearway. Most of them in my understanding aren't. Unless it's a London speciality, for instance none of the main road stops in MK have any sort of regulations on them, they are just laybys.
Pretty much every bus stop in London has a solid yellow line and this accompanying sign:
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/FY2HM7/ye...on-bus-priority-network-sign-close-FY2HM7.jpg
(Photo shows a bus stop post with a road sign, the top half in Green stating "London Bus Priority Network" and the bottom half in yellow with the 'No stopping' symbol and text "No stopping at any time except buses")

This is of course except on Red routes, where there is a solid red line and the accompanying sign stating "RED ROUTE - No stopping at any time except buses."
 

infobleep

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Whilst we're heading off into off topic trivia, I was amazed that my other half (a lifelong Londoner) had never realised that request stops have inverted colours (ie: a white roundel on a red background)!
I don't think @Snow1964 was referring to buses running early, but to the 'maintenance of headway'. Bus controllers in London will aim to keep an even, regular service and prevent bus bunching. This might mean holding a bus for a minute or two to help prevent it from catching up with the one in front.

They do something similar on the Piccadilly line at Finsbury Park. Regular passengers will be familiar with the announcement "we're just being held here to regulate the service".
I see plenty of bus bunching on routes I use, K3, K2, 71 and 281. The K3 is low frequency so I can understand but the other 3 aren't.
 

Busaholic

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And a lot of it is the headway system, one bus has a delay (or a driver deliberately going slow so he doesn't get another run before break or hometime) then all the following buses sit around. Part of the reason why bus usage is falling as people are fed up with the hanging around extending journey time

One interesting snippet that has come out recently is waiting at a bus stop for more than 2 minutes is illegal (apart from boarding/alighting) under the bus stop clearway regulations, but even on camera controlled bus lanes it appears not to be enforced
There are exemptions for loading/unloading of passengers and crew changes, but otherwise that's correct. On the other hand, if the stop has the legend 'BUS STAND' both on the road and, in theory anyway, on an accompanying plate, buses can wait for an unspecified time. Isn't life simple?! :lol:

P.S. I've recently become more acquainted than even I really wanted to be with the rules and regs in my efforts to get my local council to accept that a parking ticket my car received for 'parking on a bus stop' was unreasonable in the circumstances.
 

MotCO

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I can remember when at certain stops the bus conductor had to punch a card in a time clock at the stop as evidence of the time the bus called at the stop. Station Road Gidea Park, and the Bull, Brook Street, Brentwood are two places this happened. This was in the 1960s.

I remember one on the northbound Burntwood Lane stop near Earlsfield, now named 'Openview', served by route 189 operated by RTs.
 
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