Man claims £40,000 of train refunds without paying for a single journey

Saperstein · 6 Feb 2020

From:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/man-claims-40000-train-refunds-17700433

A man used a computer programme to fraudulently claim £40,000 in compensation and refunds for delayed trains - when he hadn't even been on them.

Thomas William Ingram of Cheltenham Road, Blackburn, was able to create false tickets for delayed trains.

He would then use his fakes to claim for compensation and refunds for delays, despite them never having affected him, reports Lancashire Live.

The 34-year-old admitted to using a computer programme to complete his refund scheme which saw him make £40,000.

Train companies claim this cost them more than £150,000 but the court was unaware how that figure was reached and adjourned the case to make inquests into the figures.

Northern Rail, Greater Anglia, Cross Country, East Midlands Trains, Virgin Coast, Great Western Railway, Southern Trains, London North East and Virgin Trains East Coast, were all defrauded by Ingram between January 1 and July 1, 2013.
Ingram also got onto trains without a ticket and then paid for his journeys using a card devoid of money.

The ticket operators would only be aware that he had not paid for the ticket at the end of the day when they were looking at their takings.

After making claims for refunds on his false tickets because they had been delayed, Ingram would then apply for compensation to the companies claiming that the delayed trains had inconvenienced him to a great extent.

Ingram appeared at Preston Crown Court today (February 6) wearing a black, plastic rain jacket, jeans and holding a black Adidas bag.

The 34-year-old spoke to confirm his name and age before pleading guilty to nine counts of fraud.

He will return to Preston Crown Court on March 19.

I’m not sure I understand what this guy was up-to here.

When I first read it I thought it must be some kind of delay repay fraud as has happened in the past but then the article talks of him using trains with a “card devoid of money”.

Making legitimate delay repay can be a nightmare, these sorts of things are just gonna make things harder on genuine pax who have suffered genuine delays.

Saperstein.

RailUK Forums

TheEdge · 6 Feb 2020

Saperstein said:
I'm not sure I understand what this guy was up-to here.

He was comitting what is lovely simple fraud. Multiple websites will either let you search all train delays or certain sites look specifically for delays to claim on. It then isn't all that hard to start cherry picking the most profitable delays with fake tickets.

As you say all it'll do is add red tape and slow down legitimate complaints.

kristiang85 · 6 Feb 2020

It's the ability to create 'false tickets' that interests me - how is this possible? Is it simply Photoshop and there aren't enough checks?

And "Ingram also got onto trains without a ticket and then paid for his journeys using a card devoid of money." - I always wondered if someone could design a card to fool a machine into thinking there is money on it, but nothing actually being here.

If I were railway companies I would be hiring him to beef up their security systems! He's the Frank Abagnale of train fraud.

gg1 · 6 Feb 2020

kristiang85 said:
It's the ability to create 'false tickets' that interests me - how is this possible? Is it simply Photoshop and there aren't enough checks?

Not sure if other TOCs differ but when I claimed from Chiltern last year I had to email a scan of the ticket to them as proof of travel. I'm sure it'd be easy enough to manipulate a scan of a genuine ticket in Photoshop if you had the skills and the desire to do so. It did surprise me that they didn't want to see the original ticket.

Mojo · 6 Feb 2020

The two sections of the article don't appear linked; it reads to me as if there were two separate frauds going on here; on some occasions he was sending in fake tickets for Delay repay; and on other occasions he was boarding trains with a card with insufficient funds, relying on the fact that, at the time (the article says the offences occurred in 2013), card transactions by staff carrying portable machines were carried out "Offline" and only processed after the machine had been docked at the end of the day.

Aictos · 6 Feb 2020

gg1 said:
Not sure if other TOCs differ but when I claimed from Chiltern last year I had to email a scan of the ticket to them as proof of travel. I'm sure it'd be easy enough to manipulate a scan of a genuine ticket in Photoshop if you had the skills and the desire to do so. It did surprise me that they didn't want to see the original ticket.

When I last applied for delay repay with TL, I had to provide the ticket number to prove I had a valid ticket.

gingerheid · 6 Feb 2020

I think he'd been buying tickets from guards using on-board machines that weren't (in 2013) net connected using a card for an account with no money.

matt_world2004 · 6 Feb 2020

It sounds to me that he was finding out what trains were delayed near him

1.) Went to the nearby station and brought tickets with his card or a handheld card reader , either using a ticket machine, onboard sales or ticket office that only had offline authentication.

2.) Claiming DR on that ticket even though he didn't pay for it. If the system accepted a simple scan rather than other security features. It seems like a flaw in the system

Saperstein · 6 Feb 2020

gingerheid said:
I think he'd been buying tickets from guards using on-board machines that weren't (in 2013) net connected using a card for an account with no money.

In that case then surely the bank should fork out and not the TOC if the card passed scrutiny?

Saperstein.

gg1 · 6 Feb 2020

matt_world2004 said:
It sounds to me that he was finding out what trains were delayed near him

Nope, according to the article he lived in Blackburn and claimed money from: Northern Rail, Greater Anglia, Cross Country, East Midlands Trains, Virgin Coast, Great Western Railway, Southern Trains, London North East and Virgin Trains East Coast

I do wonder if he was caught because one of the TOCs who don't serve anywhere within 100 miles of Blackburn decided to look far more closely at his claims for possible fraud, especially if he made multiple claims from said TOC. Claims for services someone travelling from Blackburn to X would be highly unlikely to use could be a flag too, e.g. if he had claimed for a delayed Liverpool Street to Norwich or Paddington to Bristol service.

Mojo · 6 Feb 2020

Saperstein said:
In that case then surely the bank should fork out and not the TOC if the card passed scrutiny?

Saperstein.

I’m not sure what you mean by scrutiny, but it was at the time a choice for the company to accept a method of payment with no way to verify whether the transaction would complete or not.

Saperstein · 6 Feb 2020

Mojo said:
I’m not sure what you mean by scrutiny, but it was at the time a choice for the company to accept a method of payment with no way to verify whether the transaction would complete or not.

Authorised was probably a better word to use.

I know some cards, mainly credit, authorised on trains/planes/ships etc when there was no connection but usually only up to a certain amount known as the floor limit.

Other cards of the time, Visa Electron/Solo would only authorise when merchants were online as these cards were issued on “Basic accounts”.

Today, of course there are many “prepaid cards” in circulation which must undertake a live check for funds at all times.

But surely the banks set this rule, not the merchants. It was certainly that way in normal retail.

Saperstein.

LowLevel · 6 Feb 2020

He was detected several years ago, it just required some effort to grab him - I remember getting a memo to contact BTP immediately if someone tried to purchase specific seasons on board from manned stations. Back under Avantix (a now withdrawn obsolete onboard ticket issuing system) because it was an offline system declined transactions were generally forced through and charge backs only became apparent later. He took advantage of this to buy weekly seasons off guards and splurge on the delay repay to boot.

It was considered to be the retailer that was liable because they chose to to continue to use an offline system for authorisations.

The use of online systems on board should theoretically render this impossible now.

R G NOW. · 6 Feb 2020

I think he will now get a bailiff knock on the door, saying you owe 40,000.00. What do other members think.

ainsworth74 · 6 Feb 2020

R G NOW. said:
I think he will now get a bailiff knock on the door, saying you owe 40,000.00. What do other members think.

I think the case will conclude and he will be required to pay some manner of fine and or other charges. If he arranges to pay them then they will be paid off. I'm not sure why you think the bailiffs would get involved before any court action has completed or he has failed to come to terms regarding paying any money owed as a result?

gingerheid · 6 Feb 2020

I think there are still some transport operators that take the chance where the transactions are low value (I've noticed Android Pay transactions 'approved' far too quickly that take ages to show up on the statement), though banned lists should restrict the number of days it can be done with any one card.

R G NOW. said:
I think he will now get a bailiff knock on the door, saying you owe 40,000.00. What do other members think.

Yes, but if he had no money this won't scare him

R G NOW. · 6 Feb 2020

ainsworth74 said:
I think the case will conclude and he will be required to pay some manner of fine and or other charges. If he arranges to pay them then they will be paid off. I'm not sure why you think the bailiffs would get involved before any court action has completed or he has failed to come to terms regarding paying any money owed as a result?

I had thought it had passed those stages, I suppose.

greatkingrat · 6 Feb 2020

Ultimately, even if 10% of transactions end up being declined, the TOC has still got 90% of the money they should have. Where a network is largely unbarried and many stations do not have ticket issuing facilities that may be a pretty good result. If the TOC doesn't accept cards on board then a much higher percentage will end up getting a free trip.

yorkie · 6 Feb 2020

gg1 said:
Claims for services someone travelling from Blackburn to X would be highly unlikely to use could be a flag too, e.g. if he had claimed for a delayed Liverpool Street to Norwich or Paddington to Bristol service.

That in itself wouldn't be a good reason; for example I make loads of journeys that are nowhere near my address as I do a lot of travelling involving overnight stays.

However it is true that even if someone submits genuine tickets for Delay Repay that unusual patterns of claiming can be noticed.

For example if someone makes the same daily commute but always happens to travel when delays occur. Also they might make conflicting claims that would involve being in two places at the same time.

But this was far more than just Delay Repay fraud; how on earth he thought he was going to get away with this is beyond comprehension!

However it is surprising that he was able to rack up such a huge amount before he was finally stopped.

gg1 · 6 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
That in itself wouldn't be a good reason; for example I make loads of journeys that are nowhere near my address as I do a lot of travelling involving overnight stays.

However it is true that even if someone submits genuine tickets for Delay Repay that unusual patterns of claiming can be noticed.

That's kind of what I was getting at, a claim for one unusual journey (based on home address) in isolation wouldn't raise any eyebrows but a number of them would be sufficient cause to review all the person's previous claims in closer detail for possible signs of fraud.

yorkie said:
But this was far more than just Delay Repay fraud; how on earth he thought he was going to get away with this is beyond comprehension!

IMO, overconfidence bordering on arrogance. The fact he did get away with it so long made him think he had a foolproof system.

swt_passenger · 6 Feb 2020

gg1 said:
IMO, overconfidence bordering on arrogance. The fact he did get away with it so long made him think he had a foolproof system.

I wonder if he just got so over-confident he accidentally claimed for journeys that meant he was in two (or more) places at once, and in one TOC’s area...

DarloRich · 6 Feb 2020

Saperstein said:
From:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/man-claims-40000-train-refunds-17700433

I’m not sure I understand what this guy was up-to here.

When I first read it I thought it must be some kind of delay repay fraud as has happened in the past but then the article talks of him using trains with a “card devoid of money”.

Making legitimate delay repay can be a nightmare, these sorts of things are just gonna make things harder on genuine pax who have suffered genuine delays.

Saperstein.

It is a fairly obvious and straightforward alleged fraud. Hardly rocket science. Sounds like he got greedy.

DarloRich · 6 Feb 2020

R G NOW. said:
I think he will now get a bailiff knock on the door, saying you owe 40,000.00. What do other members think.

I am not sure you quite understand the process. A bailiff doesnt just rock up and take your TV!

Taunton · 6 Feb 2020

Sounds to me like an imprisonable series of frauds.

Having said that, the rail companies, in setting up their Delay Repay schemes, with full encouragement from the DfT, have always seemed to me to be open to serial claimants, as there is really no way to prove that I, as a passenger, was on a given train. Whyever has it taken 7 years for this to come to court?

DynamicSpirit · 6 Feb 2020

gg1 said:
Not sure if other TOCs differ but when I claimed from Chiltern last year I had to email a scan of the ticket to them as proof of travel. I'm sure it'd be easy enough to manipulate a scan of a genuine ticket in Photoshop if you had the skills and the desire to do so. It did surprise me that they didn't want to see the original ticket.

Sending the original ticket would presumably require posting it - which would be a bit of a faff.

One thing I'm surprised apparently isn't done is have a unique ticket number on all tickets sold, with that number traceable back to a central database so the TOC can easily check against the scans the claimant sends in that a ticket with that number and matching the details on the scan was in fact sold. That would instantly stop anyone from being able to claim with counterfeit ticket scans.

winks · 6 Feb 2020

Would a guard sell a weekly season ticket on board a train though?

Belperpete · 6 Feb 2020

TheEdge said:
He was comitting what is lovely simple fraud. Multiple websites will either let you search all train delays or certain sites look specifically for delays to claim on. It then isn't all that hard to start cherry picking the most profitable delays with fake tickets.

I agree that it is would be easy to identify heavily-delayed trains without ever travelling on them. It is getting a fake ticket valid for that train that wouldn't be so easy. At the dates he was doing this, wouldn't claiming delay-repay have required card tickets submitted by post?

ainsworth74 · 6 Feb 2020

winks said:
Would a guard sell a weekly season ticket on board a train though?

Certainly. I see many being issued all the time on Monday mornings on my line!

Belperpete · 6 Feb 2020

DynamicSpirit said:
One thing I'm surprised apparently isn't done is have a unique ticket number on all tickets sold, with that number traceable back to a central database so the TOC can easily check against the scans the claimant sends in that a ticket with that number and matching the details on the scan was in fact sold. That would instantly stop anyone from being able to claim with counterfeit ticket scans.

When you make a delay-repay claim to TfW, you are required to enter the ticket number and reference printed on the ticket (even though you also have to scan the ticket). Don't these numbers uniquely identify the ticket? Whether they can be traced back to a central database or not is another matter, particularly for onboard sales, or tickets sold by another TOC or ticketing agent.

Edders23 · 6 Feb 2020

DarloRich said:
It is a fairly obvious and straightforward alleged fraud. Hardly rocket science. Sounds like he got greedy.

these sort of people always do and that's when they get caught ! As for TOC's getting money back I doubt it he has probably spent it all and has very little assets to his name so a proceeds of crime seizure would be unlikely as for a civil court each TOC would have to sue separately and if he doesn't pay all they can do is send bailiffs in assuming he has anything worth seizing to sell

Man claims £40,000 of train refunds without paying for a single journey

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