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Southern to MK Central

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JonathanH

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There was a "cunning plan" by Anglia (ever inventive) for an Ipswich - Milton Keynes service via the North London line

Was it Anglia who lined up the Gatwick Express 73+488+489 stock for some kind of open access service? What did they have in mind to operate to Milton Keynes?
 
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STEVIEBOY1

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Was it Anglia who lined up the Gatwick Express 73+488+489 stock for some kind of open access service? What did they have in mind to operate to Milton Keynes?
Not sure about that, but Anglia did have a few trains for a little from East Anglia to Stratford East London, then via the North London Line onto Staines and then into Southwest land. Operated by 3 car newish DMUs.
 

A0wen

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Not sure about that, but Anglia did have a few trains for a little from East Anglia to Stratford East London, then via the North London Line onto Staines and then into Southwest land. Operated by 3 car newish DMUs.

Yep - Crosslink - using 170 Turbostars to run from Ipswich to Basingstoke - details here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Crosslink

The biggest issue with the Southern service on the WCML is how slow it is. The old Connex Rugby - Gatwick ran limited stop IIRC calling Northampton, Milton Keynes, Watford Jnc, then the WLL stations to Clapham Junction.
 

JonathanH

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The biggest issue with the Southern service on the WCML is how slow it is. The old Connex Rugby - Gatwick ran limited stop IIRC calling Northampton, Milton Keynes, Watford Jnc, then the WLL stations to Clapham Junction.

Your view on that will depend on whether you live in Milton Keynes or one of the stations between Milton Keynes and Watford Junction.
 

Merle Haggard

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Yep - Crosslink - using 170 Turbostars to run from Ipswich to Basingstoke - details here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Crosslink

The biggest issue with the Southern service on the WCML is how slow it is. The old Connex Rugby - Gatwick ran limited stop IIRC calling Northampton, Milton Keynes, Watford Jnc, then the WLL stations to Clapham Junction.

Indeed. For a journey from Northampton to anywhere on the Southern (even Clapham Junction itself) throughout the day NRES never suggests using the present Sothern service, always via Euston. Even though, once an hour, it suggests NMP -> RUG -> (Avanti) Euston, so with an extra 40 miles handicap and it's still quicker via Euston.

However, it IS useful when travelling from North of Milton Keynes to stations further south on the WCML, and NRES does suggest its use.
 

Bletchleyite

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Your view on that will depend on whether you live in Milton Keynes or one of the stations between Milton Keynes and Watford Junction.

Unless you absolutely leg it across London or are lucky with the Tube, it's still a faster way to get from Bletchley to Clapham Jn than via London (though you can then get to East Croydon faster at certain times of day[1] by changing at Clapham Jn). When it's been canned coming back from East Croydon I've always managed to get 15 minutes worth of Delay Repay going via Vic or Thameslink. You might beat it from MKC with the Avantis only taking 30 minutes, though. And there are advantages of going to Bletchley instead of MKC if you live between the two - plentiful parking and far cheaper, for one, and the whole experience is just a lot less "rat race", having more the character of a wayside halt.

I also love the crossing of the Thames which is almost as scenic as the 59/68/168 bus.

That, and 4 out of the 8 coaches are all tables so you can actually work during the journey, done that a few times.

[1] The general pattern is xx17 off Bletchley, however the 07xx is 0706, presumably for peak WCML pathing reasons, running 11 minutes earlier than normal all the way to CLJ where it then sits for that time to regain the normal path which is clockface all day. So if you leg it over the bridge you can pick up a fast and get there quicker.
 

cle

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These days it calls at Wembley too, and a few more stops on the WLL (I'd say it could drop West Brompton and Imperial Wharf now) - or it becomes a slower service and turns at Watford.

If a piece of engineering could get the trains over to the fasts after Clapham, then East Croydon/Gatwick/Brighton fast would be a really appealing aim again - but the current track layout is too tricky. And then it could truly be a second Thameslink.
 

JonathanH

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If a piece of engineering could get the trains over to the fasts after Clapham

They don't build pieces of engineering for one or two trains an hour, particularly ones in a constrained location. Where is there space between Clapham Junction and Balham for a grade separated junction?

I'd imagine that the service at the slow line stations is now too well established to be taken away.
 

Bletchleyite

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These days it calls at Wembley too, and a few more stops on the WLL (I'd say it could drop West Brompton and Imperial Wharf now) - or it becomes a slower service and turns at Watford.

If a piece of engineering could get the trains over to the fasts after Clapham, then East Croydon/Gatwick/Brighton fast would be a really appealing aim again - but the current track layout is too tricky. And then it could truly be a second Thameslink.

I have wondered if it should be separated into two services - Watford and all stations to Clapham, and MKC all stations to Watford then Shepherd's Bush and Clapham only (I'm fairly neutral on continuation to East Croydon, it's been useful to me but that stretch is very quiet and there are excellent connections). But I think overall if I was going to put stock and staff into it I'd just go 2tph on the route as-is. It is a little slow, but the stock has nice interiors (in particular with the tables you can get a good couple of hours' work done) and it is very useful particularly to people at intermediate stations between Watford and MKC.

West Brompton is surprisingly useful, not just because of the huge developments going up around there (plus the Met Police HQ which has a lot of employment, no doubt some of whom commute there using the service) but also as a connection into the District Line, getting to which from Euston is rather slow. A lot more useful than Kenny O, I'd say.
 

BucksBones

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The stopping pattern is one thing but a substantial cause of the slow journey time is that it has to crawl all the way from Wembley to Shepherds Bush due to various infrastructure constraints.

Incidentally I've always thought it a pity that 377s can't change from AC-DC or vice versa on the move as the 378s do.

It's a really useful service though, I use it a lot.
 

MatthewRead

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The stopping pattern is one thing but a substantial cause of the slow journey time is that it has to crawl all the way from Wembley to Shepherds Bush due to various infrastructure constraints.

Incidentally I've always thought it a pity that 377s can't change from AC-DC or vice versa on the move as the 378s do.

It's a really useful service though, I use it a lot.
I didn't know the 378's could switch power while mobile.
 

cle

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They don't build pieces of engineering for one or two trains an hour, particularly ones in a constrained location. Where is there space between Clapham Junction and Balham for a grade separated junction?

I'd imagine that the service at the slow line stations is now too well established to be taken away.
I think you could re-org some tracks around Clapham Asda to hook the dive-under into P13/14. Single line bi-di, so could be 4tph, maybe 6tph one day. Otherwise, somewhere in the Streatham Triangle area.

The crawl from Shepherds Bush to Wembley is also due to the speed limits running on what are ostensibly freight lines. They could and should upgrade really - time savings could be quite decent.
 

TrainTube

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I think you could re-org some tracks around Clapham Asda to hook the dive-under into P13/14. Single line bi-di, so could be 4tph, maybe 6tph one day. Otherwise, somewhere in the Streatham Triangle area.

The crawl from Shepherds Bush to Wembley is also due to the speed limits running on what are ostensibly freight lines. They could and should upgrade really - time savings could be quite decent.
I agree about the second part, the time between Shepherds Bush and Wembley is far too long, if they could increase the line speed to at least 50mph on average it would be a much more appealing service.
I also think people going from Clapham and further south to Milton Keynes tend to go via London rather than the Southern route, mainly because of the service frequency. Because its hourly its not well suited to a lot of people, most people use the service between Clapham and Shepherds Bush from when ive used it.
 

The Planner

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I agree about the second part, the time between Shepherds Bush and Wembley is far too long, if they could increase the line speed to at least 50mph on average it would be a much more appealing service.
I also think people going from Clapham and further south to Milton Keynes tend to go via London rather than the Southern route, mainly because of the service frequency. Because its hourly its not well suited to a lot of people, most people use the service between Clapham and Shepherds Bush from when ive used it.
50mph average? Think you might be a bit optimistic there, especially with all the junctions around Willesden Wembley and the dive under.
 

TrainTube

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50mph average? Think you might be a bit optimistic there, especially with all the junctions around Willesden Wembley and the dive under.
50mph really isn't that fast, there's not a huge amount of junctions and it's it's mainly speed limits that affect it. The dive under should be improved so trains can go faster on it, that would shave off a few minutes.
 
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50mph average? Think you might be a bit optimistic there, especially with all the junctions around Willesden Wembley and the dive under.
But this is Rail Forums UK where money grows on trees. Must be about time someone brought the old north v London issue into this, to declare it will be improved because it's in London but would not happen in Leeds/Manchester etc. Works fine as it is, leave well alone, does what it says on the tin. Great value if you use daysave tickets too.
 

MarkWiles

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Did the Saturday Rugby Connex service get to Brighton before 2000? I've a suspicion it did as me and a group of friends drove down to Rugby to pick the service up shortly after launching and we definitely went to Brighton, and I don't recall changing, although it's possible we did. I know it was a cheap day out. And the guard was very friendly...

I also went on the Anglia Class 170 cross London service which started at various locations. I managed to get a Norwich to Basingstoke service which was surprisingly well used between stations although I think I might have been the only one to get off at Basingstoke.
 

The Planner

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50mph really isn't that fast, there's not a huge amount of junctions and it's it's mainly speed limits that affect it. The dive under should be improved so trains can go faster on it, that would shave off a few minutes.
Improved how? You will never get high speeds through the reverse curves. Is the signalling spaced for higher speeds? I bet it isnt.... and can you actually utilise the savings you make?
 

Bald Rick

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Was it Anglia who lined up the Gatwick Express 73+488+489 stock for some kind of open access service? What did they have in mind to operate to Milton Keynes?

GB railways (Anglia’s patent company) had a plan for OA Southampton to Waterloo. Never happened, obviously, but was a distant ancestor of the Basingstoke - Ipswich service.

Incidentally I've always thought it a pity that 377s can't change from AC-DC or vice versa on the move as the 378s do.

Technically, the 377s can change on the move. The issue is Southern won’t allow it.

I agree about the second part, the time between Shepherds Bush and Wembley is far too long, if they could increase the line speed to at least 50mph on average it would be a much more appealing service.
I also think people going from Clapham and further south to Milton Keynes tend to go via London rather than the Southern route, mainly because of the service frequency. Because its hourly its not well suited to a lot of people, most people use the service between Clapham and Shepherds Bush from when ive used it.

50mph really isn't that fast, there's not a huge amount of junctions and it's it's mainly speed limits that affect it. The dive under should be improved so trains can go faster on it, that would shave off a few minutes.

It used to be slower! It was upgraded in 2000/1 with the resignalling. The issue is curvature, some signal sighting issues, the large number of junctions that constrict track geometry, and driveability. There are a few short sections where speed could be improved, marginally, but it would mean a proliferation of signs for perhaps a few seconds benefit. Besides any benefit may not be usable due to fitting services in the timetable on the WCML and BML.
 

davehsug

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I used to travel from Stoke to Portsmouth a few times a year and when I "discovered" this service (after wondering what a Southern train was doing at MK station), did sometimes wonder if a change at MK & Clapham Junction would have been possible on the through ticket? Having some mobility issues, changing in London was always horrible and time not being that important, it would have been a convenient alternative.
 

Bletchleyite

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I used to travel from Stoke to Portsmouth a few times a year and when I "discovered" this service (after wondering what a Southern train was doing at MK station), did sometimes wonder if a change at MK & Clapham Junction would have been possible on the through ticket? Having some mobility issues, changing in London was always horrible and time not being that important, it would have been a convenient alternative.

I would be surprised if it wasn't a Permitted Route. Stick in "via Kensington Olympia" on the planner if you want to check. You might also find a split is cheaper anyway.
 

heart-of-wessex

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sure I’ve heard of a London Midland 350/1 running the MKC to ECR at some stage?

Saperstein.

Yes was just going to mention that!

Was when the 350s were grey (blue doors?) and a batch of dual voltage ones used, I'm sure they started when it was Watford - East Croydon? Can't remember how long they went on for, only a couple of years I think, also can't remember why either
 

RMcE

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Would have been 2010ish. Pretty sure it was to make up for a number of dual voltage 377s being sent from Southern to Thameslink to bolster their services.
 

davehsug

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I would be surprised if it wasn't a Permitted Route. Stick in "via Kensington Olympia" on the planner if you want to check. You might also find a split is cheaper anyway.
Thanks, I doubt any split would have beaten the dirt-cheap £23.50 single via Virgin, SW trains, and it was only a couple of years ago. I don't need to do the journey now, I was just musing.
 
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