"Grace" period for peak travel?

Howardh · 6 Feb 2020

Watching Geoff Marshall's latest video, he explained that TFL administer a "grace period" of around 4 - 5 minutes which I'm assuming is correct, so if you have an off-peak ticket and you board your train (as timetabled rather than running late) after peak starts but within this period you are good to travel on an off-peak ticket.

Just wonder if any TOC's have that same rule, if peak starts at 1601 but your train is timetabled for 1603? And does the TFL period apply to all trains, trams and underground?

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SeanG · 6 Feb 2020

It's all about tapping in. Clearly you could tap in at 0929 with the intention of getting the 0931 train and hence the grace period

Mag_seven · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
Just wonder if any TOC's have that same rule, if peak starts at 1601 but your train is timetabled for 1603?

Knowing how aggressive TOCs can be in enforcing ticket validities, I very much doubt it.

Howardh · 6 Feb 2020

SeanG said:
It's all about tapping in. Clearly you could tap in at 0929 with the intention of getting the 0931 train and hence the grace period

But that's tapping in during peak for an off-peak train? So it's the grace period in reverse? I have personal experience that staff at Bolton wouldn't let you past the gate at 1828 for a train that was timetabled to leave just after peak ended; so in effect pax's missed their perfectly legitimate train. That was in the old Northern Trains days!

Howardh · 6 Feb 2020

This is Geoff's video - "tips to save you money" after one minute

Bletchleyite · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
But that's tapping in during peak for an off-peak train? So it's the grace period in reverse? I have personal experience that staff at Bolton wouldn't let you past the gate at 1828 for a train that was timetabled to leave just after peak ended; so in effect pax's missed their perfectly legitimate train. That was in the old Northern Trains days!

Some barrier staff are clueless; what they should do is let you through as soon as the last peak train has departed, not dogmatically wait for 0930 or whatever.

Howardh · 6 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Some barrier staff are clueless; what they should do is let you through as soon as the last peak train has departed, not dogmatically wait for 0930 or whatever.

Agree, but to prevent a rush even if the train leaves at 0928 you should be allowed to go to the platform at 0920 (or maybe earlier) even if your ticket isn't valid for that train. And at Bolton if you don't let pax through you are denying them the opportunity to spend in the cafe.

EDIT - will automatic barriers let off-peak tickets through during peak times, or if they don't will they allow entry close to the end of peak hours?

JBuchananGB · 6 Feb 2020

I am advised that Southport gateline people allow off-peak pass holders through to board the 0928 service to Hunts Cross.

I hope they are reasonable people and will let me through tomorrow to board the 0931 to Stalybridge. (using my 10p tickets for a day out in Lancaster)

Mojo · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
Just wonder if any TOC's have that same rule, if peak starts at 1601 but your train is timetabled for 1603? And does the TFL period apply to all trains, trams and underground?

The detail referred to in the video you have linked to purely relates to the time you will be charged the Off-peak fare when touching in with Oyster/CPC. This applies across the board on all transport modes that use the TfL Oyster/CPC system, including National Rail outside London.

Ianno87 · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
Agree, but to prevent a rush even if the train leaves at 0928 you should be allowed to go to the platform at 0920 (or maybe earlier) even if your ticket isn't valid for that train. And at Bolton if you don't let pax through you are denying them the opportunity to spend in the cafe.

EDIT - will automatic barriers let off-peak tickets through during peak times, or if they don't will they allow entry close to the end of peak hours?

Cambridge barrier staff seem to cope fine with the multitude of different off-peak start times depending where you are going - e.g. the 0848 to Liverpool Street is off-peak, but the 0840 to King's Cross is peak, etc.

Bletchleyite · 6 Feb 2020

Really people should just be let through manually - that gives them a chance to explain clearly that if they board the earlier train they are likely to get charged a Penalty Fare.

Howardh · 6 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Really people should just be let through manually - that gives them a chance to explain clearly that if they board the earlier train they are likely to get charged a Penalty Fare.

When the TPE trains call at Bolton there are specific announcements that your ticket will not be valid if you board that train as it's set-down only, so I assume close to end of peak hours if a train pulls in an announcement would/could be made that off-peak tickets aren't valid.

sheff1 · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
When the TPE trains call at Bolton there are specific announcements that your ticket will not be valid if you board that train as it's set-down only, so I assume close to end of peak hours if a train pulls in an announcement would/could be made that off-peak tickets aren't valid.

Then there would be every chance that incorrecct announcements could be made. For example, an off peak ticket from Bolton to Sheffield or Leeds is valid from 0830, to York from 0730 etc etc.

JonathanH · 6 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Really people should just be let through manually - that gives them a chance to explain clearly that if they board the earlier train they are likely to get charged a Penalty Fare.

In an ideal world no-one would be let manually through any gateline anywhere - no excuse. Unfortunately the barriers aren't set up to enable this.

island · 6 Feb 2020

Someone FOId TFL once and found out there is a short grace period at the start and end of peak hours to account for trains leaving shortly after off peak starts, disputes about clock accuracy, and so on and so forth.

I forget the precise amount but I think it is either three or five minutes.

MikeWh · 6 Feb 2020

island said:
Someone FOId TFL once and found out there is a short grace period at the start and end of peak hours to account for trains leaving shortly after off peak starts, disputes about clock accuracy, and so on and so forth.

I forget the precise amount but I think it is either three or five minutes.

Watch the video and you'll see.

TL;DV: It's 5 at the beginning and 3 at the end.

causton · 6 Feb 2020

It is not really fair to compare the "grace period" for Oyster/Contactless to that of a paper ticket.

A paper ticket is fixed for one specific price and restriction when it is bought - an Oyster or Contactless obviously depends where, when, which mode, route, etc...

yorkie · 6 Feb 2020

causton said:
It is not really fair to compare the "grace period" for Oyster/Contactless to that of a paper ticket...

Indeed!

The original post appears muddled as if maybe only part of the video was seen by the poster; the reference to a "ticket" is not relevant as the whole point is to allow people plenty of time to get from the Oyster validator to the platform.

As there is no concept of specific trains being time restricted on PAYG, there can never be a like for like comparison.

The questions in the opening post are difficult to directly answer as the questions don't make sense.

Howardh · 6 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
Indeed!

The original post appears muddled as if maybe only part of the video was seen by the poster; the reference to a "ticket" is not relevant as the whole point is to allow people plenty of time to get from the Oyster validator to the platform.

So basically if you check in before peak starts you are good to go, but if you check in one second after 1601 then there's no grace period (which I get)? If the former is correct, what's stopping a pax standing on the platform watching a couple of trains pass that would go to their destination and then catching the third, well inside the peak times?

superjohn · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
what's stopping a pax standing on the platform watching a couple of trains pass that would go to their destination and then catching the third, well inside the peak times?

Nothing at all, but what would be the point? If you are on the platform earlier you may as well set off earlier. I suppose if trains were infrequent and there was one just into the peak period but that isn’t going to be the case for the vast majority of PAYG journeys so the potential revenue hit is insignificant.

MikeWh · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
So basically if you check in before peak starts you are good to go, but if you check in one second after 1601 then there's no grace period (which I get)? If the former is correct, what's stopping a pax standing on the platform watching a couple of trains pass that would go to their destination and then catching the third, well inside the peak times?

Well you've neither watched the video nor read my response to Island.

In answer to your question, nothing! (the time is exactly 1605 though)

Edit: Obviously you have watched the video, but clearly haven't taken in what was said.

bubieyehyeh · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
So basically if you check in before peak starts you are good to go, but if you check in one second after 1601 then there's no grace period (which I get)? If the former is correct, what's stopping a pax standing on the platform watching a couple of trains pass that would go to their destination and then catching the third, well inside the peak times?

I understood the video to mean tap in before 1605 and it would be a off-peak journey. I've never left it that late, but have done off-peak journeys that start off-peak (before 4pm) and end (after 4pm) in peak. Oyster measures off-peak/peak from when u tap in not which train u get.

Howardh · 6 Feb 2020

bubieyehyeh said:
I understood the video to mean tap in before 1605 and it would be a off-peak journey. I've never left it that late, but have done off-peak journeys that start off-peak (before 4pm) and end (after 4pm) in peak. Oyster measures off-peak/peak from when u tap in not which train u get.

That's what I take the video to mean, you can tap in up to 5 mins after peak hours starts.

Howardh · 6 Feb 2020

MikeWh said:
Edit: Obviously you have watched the video, but clearly haven't taken in what was said.

Geoff doesn't say anything about tapping in or out pre/post 1600. The implication is that in reality peak fares don't apply until 1605, with the further (but unclarified) implication that you can tap in after 1600 and catch a train that comes almost immediately and still be outside peak hours, rather than tap in before 1600 and then 5 minutes kicks in after 4pm.

trebor79 · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
When the TPE trains call at Bolton there are specific announcements that your ticket will not be valid if you board that train as it's set-down only, so I assume close to end of peak hours if a train pulls in an announcement would/could be made that off-peak tickets aren't valid.

sheff1 said:
Then there would be every chance that incorrecct announcements could be made. For example, an off peak ticket from Bolton to Sheffield or Leeds is valid from 0830, to York from 0730 etc etc.

Indeed. And some "Off peak" tickets are valid on peak trains. For example, if I need to be in London after 1000, but returning in the evening peak, I have to buy an anytime return at £106. Buy I've discovered I can buy an off-peak return to somewhere else, via the London terminus for about half the price, and the return portion is valid for any train departing after 9am.
If I have to be in London before 1000, then I'm shafted and have to pay full fare, but still it's a useful ticket.
I excessed an off peak ticket to the London terminus to "somewhere else". Made sure I clarified with the ticket clerk that the enforceable restriction code would be the one on the excess. "But they are both off peak anyway, let me check.... Oh. Ah, I see!"

yorkie · 6 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
Geoff doesn't say anything about tapping in or out pre/post 1600. The implication is that in reality peak fares don't apply until 1605, with the further (but unclarified) implication that you can tap in after 1600 and catch a train that comes almost immediately and still be outside peak hours.

I thought it was made clear in the video that if you tap in between 1605 and 1857 the peak fare will apply.

Howardh said:
So basically if you check in before peak starts you are good to go, but if you check in one second after 1601 then there's no grace period (which I get)?

I thought it was made clear (both visually and verbally) that tapping in before 1605 resulted in the off peak fare being charged.

Howardh said:
If the former is correct, what's stopping a pax standing on the platform watching a couple of trains pass that would go to their destination and then catching the third, well inside the peak times?

As mentioned in previous posts, with PAYG what matters is the time you tap in.

Springs Branch · 7 Feb 2020

trebor79 said:
Indeed. And some "Off peak" tickets are valid on peak trains. For example, if I need to be in London after 1000, but returning in the evening peak, I have to buy an anytime return at £106. Buy I've discovered I can buy an off-peak return to somewhere else, via the London terminus for about half the price, and the return portion is valid for any train departing after 9am.

I'm sure there've been threads on this part of the forum posted by passengers doing this (either because they actually were travelling to/from the other side of London, or they spotted this hack too) and then had hassles from barrier staff at the London terminal on the way home - because "that's an Off-Peak ticket, and this is a Peak train".

Not sure how best to mitigate the risk of encountering poorly-trained but tenacious barrier / on-board staff with this one. Maybe a printed copy of the meaning of the particular restriction code from NRE website?

Springs Branch · 7 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Some barrier staff are clueless; what they should do is let you through as soon as the last peak train has departed, not dogmatically wait for 0930 or whatever.

My most recent experience of this problem was with a TVM rather than barrier staff.

I arrived at Wigan North Western around 09:20 intending to buy an Off-Peak Day Return to Liverpool and catch the 09:31 departure to Lime St.

The TVM only offered two options: Anytime Single or Anytime Day Return, despite the last "peak" train to Liverpool already having left at 09:18.

Maybe if I'd waited until the TVM's clock ticked over to 09:30, Off-Peak fares would appear on the menu? But it wouldn't be feasible to buy the CDR ticket and board the legitimate 09:31 departure.

Luckily the booking office wasn't busy that day and they promptly sold me the ticket I needed.
Next time there's a risk of this, it'll be buy on-line before I leave the house and TOD at the station.

paddington · 7 Feb 2020

Howardh said:
Geoff doesn't say anything about tapping in or out pre/post 1600. The implication is that in reality peak fares don't apply until 1605, with the further (but unclarified) implication that you can tap in after 1600 and catch a train that comes almost immediately and still be outside peak hours, rather than tap in before 1600 and then 5 minutes kicks in after 4pm.

When you are using contactless or Oyster PAYG, the words "peak" and "off-peak" apply to the time you pass through ticket barriers or validate your Oyster to begin a journey. They do not apply to the time you travel nor do they apply to trains.

If you tap in before 0635 on a working day, you will pay the off-peak fare even if you sit around in the station until 0700 before travelling, provided that you do not exceed the time limits for your journey. I am sure that there are some people who do this in big London stations that have cafes inside the barriers: you could get a "free" breakfast with the savings as long as you leave your house in time, even if you don't actually need to leave so early.

If you lived very near to an unbarriered station, you could even go to the station and tap in before 0635 then go back home for 20 minutes. You would pay the off-peak fare even though most people on your train would be paying the peak fare. The train companies would not be too happy with that if they caught you but I am not sure if it is actually against any rules.

If you use a national rail ticket (orange card, e-ticket, etc.) then peak and off-peak apply to either the scheduled time of a train, or the actual time of a train in some cases. They do not apply to the time you pass through ticket barriers even if ticket barriers are programmed to reduce abuse.

A Challenge · 7 Feb 2020

On some TVMs you can buy tickets for future travel, if you set the date to 'today' and the time to only a little bit later but after the end of peak restrictions it will offer you off peak tickets.

"Grace" period for peak travel?

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