Southeastern: 'My three weeks of hell working on the railway' - BBC

Horizon22 · 6 Feb 2020

ComUtoR said:
I haven't said that at all. What I have said is that we all need to change and I have a desire for it to change.

As do I. I agree too much is pushed onto managers. But again, I don't think there is a utopian communication system, although love to hear suggestions for improvements. If it isn't too be top-down, there we must rely on staff of all grades and disciplines to proactively find the information through a "grass-roots approach", however some will not as they do not believe they have a problem with their mental health / wish to keep things private. In some cases it may be hard to find unde the noticeboard buried with information. It's a Catch 22.

Most managers I know are happy to help and will gladly signpost in the right direction. As I said before, it is best they receive the right support and there's no easy fix to this as although we would like all managers to have a detailed discussion with everyone, as you've already mentioned they are unavailable / overloaded. Having mental health reps in each depot or local LDC might be a step forward.

RailUK Forums

Horizon22 · 6 Feb 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
When they are only working a 3 or 4 hour day the last thing they need is a drivers personal problems clogging up their busy schedule.

Agree with this. I've seen a driver book on for duty in tears. Myself and others told him to go and speak to the managers and not to pick up. The managers talked him into picking up. A few weeks later the same driver had an incident and they threw the book at him. Its also widely accepted that anything a driver says in confidence to the DMs will be all over the depot in a day or two. I know I'm not allowed to swear on this forum but if I was I would be turning the rest of this page blue with my thoughts on those managers. I wouldnt trust them with the contents of my weekly shopping list, let alone any personal problems.

Not belittling your experiences, but this just perpetuates the "all managers are s***" which seems to pervade these forums sometimes. Many do and will care.

SlimJim1694 · 6 Feb 2020

Horizon22 said:
Not belittling your experiences, but this just perpetuates the "all managers are s***" which seems to pervade these forums sometimes. Many do and will care.

I can only speak from experience. I'm sure there are good DMs out there in the wider world (in fact friends at other depots and TOCs say there are), but that doesn't help me. The only time my manager ever speaks to me is when he wants to berate me for some minor infringement he's found on a download (opened the doors after 2.9 seconds instead of 3, that kind of thing).

ComUtoR · 6 Feb 2020

Horizon22 said:
although love to hear suggestions for improvements

Maybe take down the posters about Alert Bert and stick one up about the Chaplain (downloadable from the intranet fyi)

SlimJim1694 said:
The only time my manager ever speaks to me is when he wants to berate me for some minor infringement he's found on a download (opened the doors after 2.9 seconds instead of 3, that kind of thing).

Dude. 2.9 is shocking. You know that's against company policy and is potentially dangerous. Hope you got an Amber

Robertj21a · 6 Feb 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
I can only speak from experience. I'm sure there are good DMs out there in the wider world (in fact friends at other depots and TOCs say there are), but that doesn't help me. The only time my manager ever speaks to me is when he wants to berate me for some minor infringement he's found on a download (opened the doors after 2.9 seconds instead of 3, that kind of thing).

If he berates ALL staff in a similar way then complain to his boss (via Union if appropriate). If he only berates you and a few others look for another job.

ComUtoR · 6 Feb 2020

Robertj21a said:
f he only berates you and a few others look for another job.

So if he is a bully then the employee should quit ?

al78 · 6 Feb 2020

ComUtoR said:
So if he is a bully then the employee should quit ?

Ideally not, but challenging a superior only works if you can get the weight of an even higher superior behind you that has power over the antagonist. If not, then you may have to quit, even if you are in the right, for the sake of your mental health. Life is not fair, karma does not exist, and sometimes people get away with poor behaviour without consequence. The best you can do is remove yourself from toxic environments.

43066 · 6 Feb 2020

Robertj21a said:
If he berates ALL staff in a similar way then complain to his boss (via Union if appropriate). If he only berates you and a few others look for another job.

What an extraordinary comment on a thread about the mental well-being of employees in the workplace!

Management shouldn’t ever be about box ticking and “berating” people. Show me a manager who goes around doing that and I’ll show you an extremely poor manager.

Good management should be about motivating staff to perform at their best. That (hopefully) includes managers getting to know their reports, listening to their concerns and providing pastoral care etc. where appropriate.

Of course management also involves managing performance, attendance, disciplinary hearings etc. but these should only be relatively small aspects of the role.

Unfortunately railway management is all too often only focussed on the latter! Often that’s because managers go into the role for the wrong reasons - usually to get away from shift work.

Horizon22 · 6 Feb 2020

ComUtoR said:
Maybe take down the posters about Alert Bert and stick one up about the Chaplain (downloadable from the intranet fyi)

Sure, but nobody ever seems to take responsibility for communal noticeboards, hence my earlier post about irrelevant content from previous years often still being there cluttering it.

SlimJim1694 · 7 Feb 2020

Robertj21a said:
If he berates ALL staff in a similar way then complain to his boss (via Union if appropriate). If he only berates you and a few others look for another job.

Funnily enough I am looking for another job!

The article about Southeastern caring about their staff is a load of rubbish. The only word I can think of is contempt. Look how many drivers are leaving or getting the sack. Most companies would look at that and realise they have a problem, but southeastern don't, they just keep recruiting more trainee drivers who will either get sacked or leave. Going over to TFL and hopefully clearing the dead wood out with a new broom can't come soon enough for SE.

Gems · 7 Feb 2020

The biggest culprits for causing staff mental health issues are managers themselves. Passengers I can deal with. Managers less so.

SlimJim1694 · 7 Feb 2020

Gems said:
The biggest culprits for causing staff mental health issues are managers themselves. Passengers I can deal with. Managers less so.

100% agree with this.

Horizon22 · 7 Feb 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
Funnily enough I am looking for another job!

The article about Southeastern caring about their staff is a load of rubbish. The only word I can think of is contempt. Look how many drivers are leaving or getting the sack. Most companies would look at that and realise they have a problem, but southeastern don't, they just keep recruiting more trainee drivers who will either get sacked or leave. Going over to TFL and hopefully clearing the dead wood out with a new broom can't come soon enough for SE.

This has been posted before, but many SE drivers I know have left due to better pay deals at LO, GTR, Crossrail etc and the sheer number of depots within a commutable distance. Not necessarily due to management although it can't help. Wouldn't hold your breath on TfL takeover though.

SlimJim1694 · 7 Feb 2020

Horizon22 said:
This has been posted before, but many SE drivers I know have left due to better pay deals at LO, GTR, Crossrail etc and the sheer number of depots within a commutable distance. Not necessarily due to management although it can't help. Wouldn't hold your breath on TfL takeover though.

Its been mooted for years but like you say, I won't hold my breath for TFL. I'll be leaving anyway just as soon as I can. Got a few irons in the fire but I cocked up on the doors not long after I passed out and now I carry that monkey on my back every time I apply to another TOC.

yorkie · 7 Feb 2020

Horizon22 said:
... Many do and will care.

Just to add that we have been contacted by some conscientious driver managers in this forum, who are understandably reluctant to post themselves, who do care and would not dream of behaving in the manner described in the previous post.

Unfortunately you can get people like that in most walks of life.

bramling · 7 Feb 2020

43066 said:
What an extraordinary comment on a thread about the mental well-being of employees in the workplace!

Management shouldn’t ever be about box ticking and “berating” people. Show me a manager who goes around doing that and I’ll show you an extremely poor manager.

Good management should be about motivating staff to perform at their best. That (hopefully) includes managers getting to know their reports, listening to their concerns and providing pastoral care etc. where appropriate.

Of course management also involves managing performance, attendance, disciplinary hearings etc. but these should only be relatively small aspects of the role.

Unfortunately railway management is all too often only focussed on the latter! Often that’s because managers go into the role for the wrong reasons - usually to get away from shift work.

This is an excellent post, and sums things up pretty well. The last sentence in particular is bang on the money.

The industry has had to put a lot of focus on ensuring front-line staff recruitment, in particular drivers, matches square pegs in square holes due to the sheer focus on safety which has been demanded of the industry. It’s unfortunate that this level of focus hasn’t always been applied to people leadership roles. Indeed the competence of some people in such roles can be delusional.

SlimJim1694 · 7 Feb 2020

Listen, I'm not sure if it's my posts that conscientious driver managers are responding about, but let me clarify. I'm not saying that ALL driver managers are uncaring, vindictive, petty, in the job for their own reasons and so forth. I'm just saying that over half of the ones I come into contact with from day to day come across that way, not all of them. The conscientious and caring DMs will know the ones I'm talking about. There are some decent managers out there thankfully.

But when a number of the current DMs were p---takers as drivers a lot of them forget that many of us still remember them as drivers and we can see through the management act. When they drag the latest poor driver through the mud for an incident there are a lot of us who remember what they were like as drivers. I think the word I'm looking for is hypocrisy.

I have no truck with decent managers.

Horizon22 · 7 Feb 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
Listen, I'm not sure if it's my posts that conscientious driver managers are responding about, but let me clarify. I'm not saying that ALL driver managers are uncaring, vindictive, petty, in the job for their own reasons and so forth. I'm just saying that over half of the ones I come into contact with from day to day come across that way, not all of them. The conscientious and caring DMs will know the ones I'm talking about. There are some decent managers out there thankfully.

But when a number of the current DMs were p---takers as drivers a lot of them forget that many of us still remember them as drivers and we can see through the management act. When they drag the latest poor driver through the mud for an incident there are a lot of us who remember what they were like as drivers. I think the word I'm looking for is hypocrisy.

I have no truck with decent managers.

Fair enough. Your earlier post however had vast sweeping statements in it, hence my need to offer a strong defense to it.

SlimJim1694 · 7 Feb 2020

Horizon22 said:
Fair enough. Your earlier post however had vast sweeping statements in it, hence my need to offer a strong defense to it.

No offence intended. I'm just fed up with the culture of management in general that I experience, mostly wideboys on a skive. if that came across as an attack on all managers as individuals then I apologise to the good ones among them. If you are a good manager you will know you are a good manager and have the respect of the drivers in your team.

Eccles1983 · 7 Feb 2020

I've known 20 driver managers.

I would feel confident in telling all of them personal details.

All good men and women. I might not if agreed with some of the methods of management, but they were all fundamentally decent people.

Geogregor · 8 Feb 2020

Eccles1983 said:
I've known 20 driver managers.

I would feel confident in telling all of them personal details.

All good men and women. I might not if agreed with some of the methods of management, but they were all fundamentally decent people.

Unfortunately "fundamentally decent people" are not necessarily good managers. There is certain skill set needed for such job and many managers don't have it.

I often wonder why is that. I guess lack of training is one problem. Managers also need training and improvement, like any other role.

Other issue is motivation of people going to those jobs. Apart from money, escaping "the coal face" is probably the most important.

43066 · 8 Feb 2020

Geogregor said:
Other issue is motivation of people going to those jobs. Apart from money, escaping "the coal face" is probably the most important.

I’d suggest money isn’t generally a motivating factor for joining the management grade. There’s (a lot) more to be earned as a driver doing overtime.

theironroad · 8 Feb 2020

43066 said:
I’d suggest money isn’t generally a motivating factor for joining the management grade. There’s (a lot) more to be earned as a driver doing overtime.

A lot of driver managers just take the job so they can stop doing shift work as on call aside, it's pretty much constant hours.

43066 · 8 Feb 2020

theironroad said:
A lot of driver managers just take the job so they can stop doing shift work as on call aside, it's pretty much constant hours.

Yes indeed. That’s not a good reason to go into management, hence why there’s so much dead wood in the DM grade.

There are some excellent driver managers out there, but they’re few and far between, sadly.

bramling · 9 Feb 2020

43066 said:
I’d suggest money isn’t generally a motivating factor for joining the management grade. There’s (a lot) more to be earned as a driver doing overtime.

Some see it as a stepping-stone to bigger (and thus ostensively better paid) management roles. These people are often the troublesome ones, as they attempt to rise through brown-nosing rather than actually doing their day job well.

A particularly unpleasant subset are those who feel that brown-nosing can best be achieved by how many people they can get rid of, or perhaps if they can claim the scalp of a high-value figurehead for example a troublesome union rep. This is where you get tribunals being lost when it’s found the original dismissal case was dodgy.

Southeastern: 'My three weeks of hell working on the railway' - BBC

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member