Metrolink coming to Stockport (?) - Shapps

Electric Swan · 24 Jan 2020

The Airport line does not go direct to the airport (as it snakes around Wythenshawe) as this route would be to Stockport so I don't think that is a good way of estimating (if they built the Western part of the Airport Line loop the time to the city would be a lot quicker). Also the airport line would have a lot more street running than the proposed Stockport route.

Despite all that I agree it would probably take about an hour from Stockport to MediaCityUK, changing at Cornbrook. Would be about 45 mins to St Peter's Square from Stockport by tram I reckon.

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geoffk · 24 Jan 2020

useful though Metrolink routes to Bolton and Middleton would be, I would prefer to see priority given to serving areas currently without any rail service, e.g. Middleton. Is Royton Junction to Royton still possible? Google maps suggest it might be.

Xenophon PCDGS · 24 Jan 2020

geoffk said:
useful though Metrolink routes to Bolton and Middleton would be, I would prefer to see priority given to serving areas currently without any rail service, e.g. Middleton. Is Royton Junction to Royton still possible? Google maps suggest it might be.

I know it is on its northern border, but Mills Hill still serves both that northern part of Middleton and the south part of Chadderton.

Derker on the Manchester Metrolink system is the nearest rail connected area to the site of the former Royton Junction railway station.

mwmbwls · 29 Jan 2020

Kite159 said:
It will be like the tram from Manchester Airport, hardly anybody will travel all the way to Manchester city centre due to the extra time. Likewise at Rochdale for anybody wanting the city centre.

It is somewhat of a dawdle from Manchester Airport into town at the moment but remember the proposed loop is incomplete. The full plan envisaged a loop continuing from the Airport Heavy Rail Station close to T1 west to T2 and across the m56 on to Davenport Green ( the site of the out of town station for HS2 and NPR) and then turn north to run via Newall Green and Wythenshawe Hospital to rejoin the existing route back into town at Round Thorn. There would be 10 stops from Round Thorn south to the airport via Wythenshawe Town Centre and 5 stops via Wythenshawe Hospital. TfGM could not fund both routes so focussed on Wythenshawe Town Centre - assuming that HS2 would provide the catalyst for the next phase.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mwmbw...Q1p-rtEdSv-wa9UKp-z2adfd-yG2vLN-AQuitB-7zXiCf

I hope this helps.

thenorthern · 29 Jan 2020

I would think extending the Metrolink to Stockport would be nice although I can't see passenger numbers being very high.

Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly has a train every 5 mins or something like that and is much quicker so even on that basis the Metrolink wouldn't be able to compete with trains. It's like the Manchester Airport branch to get to the airport most people still use the train as it's faster and more frequent.

Xenophon PCDGS · 29 Jan 2020

thenorthern said:
I would think extending the Metrolink to Stockport would be nice although I can't see passenger numbers being very high. Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly has a train every 5 mins or something like that and is much quicker so even on that basis the Metrolink wouldn't be able to compete with trains. It's like the Manchester Airport branch to get to the airport most people still use the train as it's faster and more frequent.

Talking of public transport from Stockport to Manchester, the 192 bus service must be one of the highest frequency bus services in Greater Manchester, serving quite a number of communities en route.

Chester1 · 29 Jan 2020

thenorthern said:
I would think extending the Metrolink to Stockport would be nice although I can't see passenger numbers being very high.

Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly has a train every 5 mins or something like that and is much quicker so even on that basis the Metrolink wouldn't be able to compete with trains. It's like the Manchester Airport branch to get to the airport most people still use the train as it's faster and more frequent.

TfGM want a Metrolink service from Stockport to the Airport. The original Didsbury line funding application proposed running through to Stockport but failed. If a Stockport to Manchester city centre service happens it would be because the most likely routes for Stockport - Manchester Airport go within a mile or two of East Didsbury and building a link would serve intermediate flows. Didsbury-Stockport would be adequately served by a single tram 5tph replacing most of the existing bus services. It would only work based on the relatively low costs of linking two tram routes with 1.5 miles of track, mostly down an old railway line. The reasons you mentioned prevent it being viable in its own right.

Xenophon PCDGS · 29 Jan 2020

Chester1 said:
Didsbury-Stockport would be adequately served by a single tram 5tph replacing most of the existing bus services. It would only work based on the relatively low costs of linking two tram routes with 1.5 miles of track, mostly down an old railway line. The reasons you mentioned prevent it being viable in its own right.

Is this old railway line to which you refer the one that used to access Stockport Tiviot Dale railway station? You say that most of the existing bus services would be replaced by such a link, but are you aware of the number of different areas served by differing bus services, many of which are far removed from the line of the former railway you refer to. Didsbury Road carries a number of such bus services.

WatcherZero · 29 Jan 2020

Chester1 said:
TfGM want a Metrolink service from Stockport to the Airport. The original Didsbury line funding application proposed running through to Stockport but failed.

It was in the original concepts but they never put it forward for funding because the bridge over the M60 near enough doubled the cost of the line (from something like £250m to £500m) and ruined the business case.

Greybeard33 · 30 Jan 2020

Chester1 said:
TfGM want a Metrolink service from Stockport to the Airport. The original Didsbury line funding application proposed running through to Stockport but failed. If a Stockport to Manchester city centre service happens it would be because the most likely routes for Stockport - Manchester Airport go within a mile or two of East Didsbury and building a link would serve intermediate flows. Didsbury-Stockport would be adequately served by a single tram 5tph replacing most of the existing bus services. It would only work based on the relatively low costs of linking two tram routes with 1.5 miles of track, mostly down an old railway line. The reasons you mentioned prevent it being viable in its own right.

Sorry, I do not understand this post. Andy Burnham's announcement on 22 January was specifically about a Metrolink extension from E Didsbury to Stockport Interchange. No mention of the Airport, and the cost of £500m - £1bn is not "relatively low" compared with previous Metrolink extensions.

Stockport Council and Transport for Greater Manchester are set to request between £500m and £1bn from the Government to deliver an extension of the Metrolink line from East Didsbury to the town centre.

TfGM and the council have already paved the way for trams to integrate with other transport networks in Stockport; the £120m redevelopment of Stockport Interchange due to start on site this year factors in a Metrolink route and stop, and is backed by £40m of Government Growth Fund money.

Stockport Council and TfGM will now work up a business case for the Metrolink extension, which is set to cost between £500m and £1bn, and will also request Government grant the necessary transport planning powers at the same time as the funding. If funding is granted, a start on site could begin by 2025.

At an announcement event in Stockport today, Burnham insisted that since the general election “the Government is listening” to requests from the North for much-needed investment in infrastructure.

“There is a national debate around the North, as well as delivering stronger towns and town centres,” Burnham said.

“Stockport is uniquely placed to deliver a new vision and show on a national stage what a northern town can be.

“When the Chancellor visited Stockport recently he was impressed with the progress on the Metrolink extension into Trafford, which is opening seven months ahead of schedule. We have demonstrated a track record for delivery, and with the creation of the Mayoral Development Corporation, it cuts through the potential time delays by getting all the necessary parties around the table, and puts us in a strong position.”

https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/stockport-prepares-1bn-metrolink-bid/

TfGM's proposal for a Stockport to Airport tram-train service, as depicted in its draft 2020-25 Delivery Plan, would be routed along the existing Stockport - Altrincham heavy rail line from Edgeley Jn to Baguley, then join the existing Metrolink line to the Airport. This tram-train service, which it avoids branding as "Metrolink", would have nothing in common with an E Didsbury to Stockport Metrolink line along the Mersey valley, except for the Metrolink platforms at the Interchange (which the two lines would approach from different directions - see the plans in the Regeneration Framework document I linked in post #25).

Chester1 · 30 Jan 2020

Greybeard33 said:
Sorry, I do not understand this post. Andy Burnham's announcement on 22 January was specifically about a Metrolink extension from E Didsbury to Stockport Interchange. No mention of the Airport, and the cost of £500m - £1bn is not "relatively low" compared with previous Metrolink extensions.

https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/stockport-prepares-1bn-metrolink-bid/

TfGM's proposal for a Stockport to Airport tram-train service, as depicted in its draft 2020-25 Delivery Plan, would be routed along the existing Stockport - Altrincham heavy rail line from Edgeley Jn to Baguley, then join the existing Metrolink line to the Airport. This tram-train service, which it avoids branding as "Metrolink", would have nothing in common with an E Didsbury to Stockport Metrolink line along the Mersey valley, except for the Metrolink platforms at the Interchange (which the two lines would approach from different directions - see the plans in the Regeneration Framework document I linked in post #25).

I hadn't read last weeks annoucement. £500m to £1bn on Didsbury to Stockport is nuts, id benefit from it but I couldn't support it. I assumed tram trains to the Airport would run on original proposed Metrolink route between Stockport and Gorsey Bank and then on the freight line to Northenden Junction, limiting the length of track that tram trains would share with mid Cheshire line services. Gorsey Bank to East Didsbury would then make sense as an add on.

Tram trains, 2tph heavy rail and freight all running between Baugely and Stockport would be interesting to timetable! I am surprised that it is considered viable.

Xenophon PCDGS · 30 Jan 2020

Chester1 said:
Tram trains, 2tph heavy rail and freight all running between Baugely and Stockport would be interesting to timetable! I am surprised that it is considered viable.

Besides the original long trial period at Sheffield, has any other official statement on the purchase and use of tram-trains been made in recent times on any other lines?

mwmbwls · 30 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Is this old railway line to which you refer the one that used to access Stockport Tiviot Dale railway station? You say that most of the existing bus services would be replaced by such a link, but are you aware of the number of different areas served by differing bus services, many of which are far removed from the line of the former railway you refer to. Didsbury Road carries a number of such bus services.

Can I refer you to a recent post on SSC - https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=866944&page=118#2360. I am sure that you will remember the former CLC route.

Greybeard33 · 30 Jan 2020

Chester1 said:
I assumed tram trains to the Airport would run on original proposed Metrolink route between Stockport and Gorsey Bank and then on the freight line to Northenden Junction, limiting the length of track that tram trains would share with mid Cheshire line services. Gorsey Bank to East Didsbury would then make sense as an add on.

Tram trains, 2tph heavy rail and freight all running between Baguley and Stockport would be interesting to timetable! I am surprised that it is considered viable.

Especially on the single track section between Cheadle Village Jn and Sharston Jn! But this proposal only appears on Map 3 in the Delivery Plan, which carries the following caveats:

In the next five years, we will develop options for...
(These are the interventions which need further investigation or development in order to identify future options and determine feasibility. This work may identify interventions that could be delivered by 2025, and we will aim to achieve that wherever possible, but most are longer term projects that would be delivered in later years.)
Subject to funding and business case approval

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...elivery_Plan_2020-2025_Draft_MASTER_final.pdf

Feasibility studies might well identify the Gorsey Bank - Northenden Jn route (old CLC line ) as more viable, if E Didsbury to Stockport gets funded first.

D365 · 30 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Besides the original long trial period at Sheffield, has any other official statement on the purchase and use of tram-trains been made in recent times on any other lines?

Transport for Wales has ordered a variant of the Stadler (formerly Vossloh) Citylink tram-trains for use on Valley Lines services, but no existing tram operator has so far announced a formal proposal for the use of tram-trains.

WatcherZero · 31 Jan 2020

The Sheffield study isn't over yet (2 year pilot and full service only commenced in October 18), many Authorities have proposed plans for their use but they cant really do anything concrete about it until the study findings are published.

mwmbwls · 31 Jan 2020

The introduction of Tram-Trains in the United Kingdom - putting the Saga into Saga?

JRE · 2 Feb 2020

mwmbwls said:
The introduction of Tram-Trains in the United Kingdom - putting the Saga into Saga?

Tram-trains.. how do you think this would affect Metrolink driver recruitment? They’d probably be required to pass the train driver psychometric assessments wouldn’t they?

507 001 · 8 Feb 2020

JRE said:
Tram-trains.. how do you think this would affect Metrolink driver recruitment? They’d probably be required to pass the train driver psychometric assessments wouldn’t they?

None of that has been decided yet.

If it’s done the way Sheffield have done theirs then no. From what I understand they effectively have two grades these days, Tram and Tram-Train, with only the latter having done the psycho tests.

The last I heard in regards to Metrolink though was that the current driving grade would be considered competent to be trained on Tram-Train when it happens.

JRE · 5 Mar 2020

507 001 said:
None of that has been decided yet.

If it’s done the way Sheffield have done theirs then no. From what I understand they effectively have two grades these days, Tram and Tram-Train, with only the latter having done the psycho tests.

The last I heard in regards to Metrolink though was that the current driving grade would be considered competent to be trained on Tram-Train when it happens.

Thanks for your reply!

On a total side note, I'm not a Metrolink Driver, but do you think they'd receive a pay increase if they were to drive tram-trains?
Do Sheffield earn more than the £33,000 that Metrolink pay their drivers, do you know?

Thanks!

507 001 · 6 Mar 2020

JRE said:
Thanks for your reply!

On a total side note, I'm not a Metrolink Driver, but do you think they'd receive a pay increase if they were to drive tram-trains?
Do Sheffield earn more than the £33,000 that Metrolink pay their drivers, do you know?

Thanks!

I would imagine so yes. I’d be willing to bet the salary would become closer to T&W metro levels.

I’m not sure how much Sheffield Tram-Train drivers are paid, but I know their normal drivers are on a fair bit less than our £34,000 top whack.

Richard P · 6 Mar 2020

Noting the comments about how long the Metrolink takes to get from the Airport to Manchester and might take from Stockport to Manchester compared to rail options:
Whilst that that's true it's worth pointing out that many passengers use the Metrolink between intermediate stations. I have been to the Airport twice as a passenger from Manchester and it does take a long time. On both occasions I was the only person on the tram when it arrived at the Airport and also when I departed later in the day. However throughout the journey passengers hopped on and off at various points and the services overall were well utilised.
Much the same can be said for the service between Piccadilly and Ashton-Under-Lyne where a train from Victoria doesn't take more than 10 minutes or so to reach it's destination just over the road from the tram terminus but that doesn't stop the Metrolink being busy every time I have used that line.
Absolutely any line to Stockport needs to avoid running on roads as much as possible to avoid road accidents and traffic delays but I welcome it taking an "indirect" route as the life blood of the Metrolink is not people travelling from one end of a line to the other but those using it to get from "a" to "b" along the route - personally I think that's should be an absolutely key criteria for any future expansion

mwmbwls · 7 Mar 2020

Richard P said:
Noting the comments about how long the Metrolink takes to get from the Airport to Manchester and might take from Stockport to Manchester compared to rail options:
Whilst that that's true it's worth pointing out that many passengers use the Metrolink between intermediate stations. I have been to the Airport twice as a passenger from Manchester and it does take a long time. On both occasions I was the only person on the tram when it arrived at the Airport and also when I departed later in the day. However throughout the journey passengers hopped on and off at various points and the services overall were well utilised.
Much the same can be said for the service between Piccadilly and Ashton-Under-Lyne where a train from Victoria doesn't take more than 10 minutes or so to reach it's destination just over the road from the tram terminus but that doesn't stop the Metrolink being busy every time I have used that line.
Absolutely any line to Stockport needs to avoid running on roads as much as possible to avoid road accidents and traffic delays but I welcome it taking an "indirect" route as the life blood of the Metrolink is not people travelling from one end of a line to the other but those using it to get from "a" to "b" along the route - personally I think that's should be an absolutely key criteria for any future expansion

Can I refer you to post #34 in which I explain why the current incomplete loop via Wythenshawe makes the current journey time such a dawdle.

Richard P · 9 Mar 2020

mwmbwls said:
Can I refer you to post #34 in which I explain why the current incomplete loop via Wythenshawe makes the current journey time such a dawdle.

Yes was very well aware of that thank you. My point was that the journey time from the Airport to Deansgate Castlefield is in keeping with what a tram system is built to achieve. If you want to get from the Airport to Manchester Piccadilly you take the 25 minute network rail option, if you want to get home to Chorlton you take the tram. I don't consider the journey a dawdle, I consider it functional and achieving what it wad designed to do and provide transport for the local community.

andrewbowden · 10 Mar 2020

Richard P said:
Yes was very well aware of that thank you. My point was that the journey time from the Airport to Deansgate Castlefield is in keeping with what a tram system is built to achieve. If you want to get from the Airport to Manchester Piccadilly you take the 25 minute network rail option, if you want to get home to Chorlton you take the tram. I don't consider the journey a dawdle, I consider it functional and achieving what it wad designed to do and provide transport for the local community.

People absolutely need to stop thinking about Metrolink as purely taking people to/from the city centre. It's so much more.

Xenophon PCDGS · 10 Mar 2020

andrewbowden said:
People absolutely need to stop thinking about Metrolink as purely taking people to/from the city centre. It's so much more.

It is hard to convince certain people of this fact.

Metrolink coming to Stockport (?) - Shapps

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