Potential reduction in opening hours of ticket offices at ten c2c stations – tell us your views

LonTravelWatch · 23 Sep 2019

c2c have published details of their proposals to reduce ticket offices opening times at ten of their stations in the London TravelWatch area (London Fenchurch Street, Limehouse, Barking, Upminster, Dagenham Dock, Rainham, Purfleet, Ockendon, Chafford Hundred and Grays). London TravelWatch is now consulting passengers on these changes and wants to hear from as many people as possible. Passengers can comment on the proposals by emailing [email protected] or writing to London TravelWatch, Europoint, 5-11 Lavington Street, London, SE1 0NZ by 14 October 2019.

Link to the press release on our website can be found here: https://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=781&x[0]=news/list

RailUK Forums

ComUtoR · 23 Sep 2019

Reduced hours > less staff required > reduction of costs > lower ticket prices

\o/ Yay !

That's how it works; right.....

racyrich · 23 Sep 2019

The TSSA union website has an article claiming c2c is on course for a loss of £10-20 million.
I'm not expecting my season ticket to go down in price!

Terry Tait · 23 Sep 2019

Speaking as a customer, I would like to see tickets offices open for longer, I don't like using TVMs as I regard them as job thiefs also I worry about losing my money inside one.
The TVMs aren't going to tell me if the train is late nor will it have a friendly chat with me when not busy.

Malcolmffc · 23 Sep 2019

The latest SWR ticket machines show a live feed of trains calling at the station.

Bald Rick · 23 Sep 2019

I’ve recently spent a lot of time travelling on the network off my usual ‘patch’. One thing that has surprised me is how many more people now seem to be using mobile ticketing and / or print at home. I have also noticed how many ticket offices at busy stations had little or no queue - or even anyone buying tickets, at busy times.

Personally I would much rather that ticket office staff were at the ‘front of house’ actively helping passengers with all potential train travel issues, rather than stuck behind a window to sell tickets and answer questions only if asked.

Hadders · 23 Sep 2019

Bald Rick said:
I’ve recently spent a lot of time travelling on the network off my usual ‘patch’. One thing that has surprised me is how many more people now seem to be using mobile ticketing and / or print at home. I have also noticed how many ticket offices at busy stations had little or no queue - or even anyone buying tickets, at busy times.

Personally I would much rather that ticket office staff were at the ‘front of house’ actively helping passengers with all potential train travel issues, rather than stuck behind a window to sell tickets and answer questions only if asked.

I've noticed similar as well. I was at Euston waiting on the ramp for my train to start boarding as a Manchester train on an adjacent platform was boarding. Hardly anyone had a traditional paper ticket.

On the other hand both ticket offices (LNER and GTR) are quite busy, especially with off peak leisure travellers. Listening in on some of the transactions is revealing - most people generally haven't got a clue when it comes to railway ticketing. I do have a major concern that there needs to be someone to assist with this significant proportion of travellers.

Bald Rick · 23 Sep 2019

Hadders said:
I do have a major concern that there needs to be someone to assist with this significant proportion of travellers.

I agree with that, but in my view that assistance would be better mingling with passengers and helping on the machines (which need to offer a full range of tickets / services), so they can also help those with non-ticketing concerns. They would also be of much more use in disruption, which is when passengers really need (and appreciate) help.

Hadders · 24 Sep 2019

Bald Rick said:
I agree with that, but in my view that assistance would be better mingling with passengers and helping on the machines (which need to offer a full range of tickets / services), so they can also help those with non-ticketing concerns. They would also be of much more use in disruption, which is when passengers really need (and appreciate) help.

I agree. The only thing I would add is that the staff need to be fully trained railway employed staff not, as I suspect penny pinching TOCs would end up doing, agency security guards on close to minimum wage.

Having had a look at the consultation document I really don't have a big issue with the proposed reductions in the opening hours. I do think that steps should be taken to make sure that stations aren't left completely unmanned though, particularly within London. I really wouldn't want to use Dagenham Dock station on a dark winter evening...

tom73 · 24 Sep 2019

Hadders said:
... Listening in on some of the transactions is revealing - most people generally haven't got a clue when it comes to railway ticketing. I do have a major concern that there needs to be someone to assist with this significant proportion of travellers.

You really do this? Perhaps we need more of these queue control thingies where you wait until called to the ticket seller's position and there is nobody behind you invading your personal space and your privacy.

JonathanH · 24 Sep 2019

The c2c network is fully gated isn't it so presumably it isn't outside the realms of possibility to ensure there is first to last staffing and gateline staff are given the ability to issue the full range of tickets / provide assistance currently offered by ticket office staff.

TarteTatin · 2 Oct 2019

Personally I would much rather that ticket office staff were at the ‘front of house’ actively helping passengers with all potential train travel issues, rather than stuck behind a window to sell tickets and answer questions only if asked.

But more likely it'll be a case of, no staff at the station means they lock the waiting room and the toilets. That's what happens where I am.

Bald Rick · 2 Oct 2019

TarteTatin said:
Personally I would much rather that ticket office staff were at the ‘front of house’ actively helping passengers with all potential train travel issues, rather than stuck behind a window to sell tickets and answer questions only if asked.

But more likely it'll be a case of, no staff at the station means they lock the waiting room and the toilets. That's what happens where I am.

Except the consultation makes it clear that most stations will still have staff at the station from first train to last.

OxtedSignaller · 3 Oct 2019

Why are they removing first to last staffing from some stations is the bigger issue? C2C on the whole is a well run network however they are far to reliant on tempoary agency staffing and as a DOO operator they should have first to last staffing or a member of staff on every train because how otherwise will the disabled access the train service...

EssexGonzo · 3 Oct 2019

At least 5 or 6 of those stations are within the Oyster/Contactless zones - which makes the prospect of declining NR ticket sales one of the drivers for this, perhaps?

Also, as a commuter-heavy, point-to-point London line, I would have though that most journeys are relatively straightforward with a lower demand for human intervention?

jayah · 5 Oct 2019

LonTravelWatch said:
c2c have published details of their proposals to reduce ticket offices opening times at ten of their stations in the London TravelWatch area (London Fenchurch Street, Limehouse, Barking, Upminster, Dagenham Dock, Rainham, Purfleet, Ockendon, Chafford Hundred and Grays). London TravelWatch is now consulting passengers on these changes and wants to hear from as many people as possible. Passengers can comment on the proposals by emailing [email protected] or writing to London TravelWatch, Europoint, 5-11 Lavington Street, London, SE1 0NZ by 14 October 2019.

Link to the press release on our website can be found here: https://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=781&x[0]=news/list

Seems bizarre to be closing Fenchurch St ticket office at 1700 on a Sunday, and why Pitsea, Grays and Leigh on Sea deserve longer hours.

Ken H · 5 Oct 2019

Bald Rick said:
I agree with that, but in my view that assistance would be better mingling with passengers and helping on the machines (which need to offer a full range of tickets / services), so they can also help those with non-ticketing concerns. They would also be of much more use in disruption, which is when passengers really need (and appreciate) help.

A bit like supermarket staff helping with self service tills?
But the only TVMs I have used recently have been northerns. Could not sell me a w yorks train and bus day ranger and wont sell tickets not starting at the machine. Tvms need to be smarter.

racyrich · 8 Feb 2020

racyrich said:
The TSSA union website has an article claiming c2c is on course for a loss of £10-20 million.
I'm not expecting my season ticket to go down in price!

The union wasn't making it up

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...a-may-quit-uk-c2c-train-line-plunges-20m-red/

One of Europe’s biggest train operators could pull out of Britain after racking up a £20m loss, The Telegraph understands.

Despite running the country’s most punctual service, the London to Essex c2c franchise went into the red in 2019 after forecast passenger growth failed to materialise.

Italian operator Trenitalia is desperate to change the terms of the line’s contract, and is in talks with the Department for Transport, according to insiders.

The “Operator of Last Resort” is monitoring c2c’s financial position, sources said. The state-owned rail lifeboat renationalised Northern last month and LNER in 2018.

Company executives are understood to be angered by “rigid” contractual obligations that fail to take into account flexible working habits that mean staff are more likely to work from home than commute into the office.

Trenitalia’s frustrations could have wider implications.

Insiders claimed that if the firm did not receive the necessary concessions from ministers on c2c, it may decide to withdraw from the UK completely.

357 LTSRail · 8 Feb 2020

racyrich said:
The union wasn't making it up

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...a-may-quit-uk-c2c-train-line-plunges-20m-red/

One of Europe’s biggest train operators could pull out of Britain after racking up a £20m loss, The Telegraph understands.

Despite running the country’s most punctual service, the London to Essex c2c franchise went into the red in 2019 after forecast passenger growth failed to materialise.

Italian operator Trenitalia is desperate to change the terms of the line’s contract, and is in talks with the Department for Transport, according to insiders.

The “Operator of Last Resort” is monitoring c2c’s financial position, sources said. The state-owned rail lifeboat renationalised Northern last month and LNER in 2018.

Company executives are understood to be angered by “rigid” contractual obligations that fail to take into account flexible working habits that mean staff are more likely to work from home than commute into the office.

Trenitalia’s frustrations could have wider implications.

Insiders claimed that if the firm did not receive the necessary concessions from ministers on c2c, it may decide to withdraw from the UK completely.

As a frequent user of c2c services, I can certainly believe this!

357 LTSRail · 8 Feb 2020

racyrich said:
The union wasn't making it up

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...a-may-quit-uk-c2c-train-line-plunges-20m-red/

One of Europe’s biggest train operators could pull out of Britain after racking up a £20m loss, The Telegraph understands.

Despite running the country’s most punctual service, the London to Essex c2c franchise went into the red in 2019 after forecast passenger growth failed to materialise.

Italian operator Trenitalia is desperate to change the terms of the line’s contract, and is in talks with the Department for Transport, according to insiders.

The “Operator of Last Resort” is monitoring c2c’s financial position, sources said. The state-owned rail lifeboat renationalised Northern last month and LNER in 2018.

Company executives are understood to be angered by “rigid” contractual obligations that fail to take into account flexible working habits that mean staff are more likely to work from home than commute into the office.

Trenitalia’s frustrations could have wider implications.

Insiders claimed that if the firm did not receive the necessary concessions from ministers on c2c, it may decide to withdraw from the UK completely.

strain of franchise pressure has become very evident over the last few years - these official ticket office hour cuts in addition to frequent lack of staff at stations due to "staff shortages" have become a very common occurrence. Given the amount of crime on trains and stations on the route, I personally find this deeply unsettling. Rolling stock maintenance appears to have slackened of late too - trains externally very tired and dirty with frequent Passenger Information System and air conditioning failiures, as are the botched together Trenitalia based ticket buying facilities and website. Is a shame to see to be honest, from an operator that used to be so well regarded.

Gathursty · 9 Feb 2020

I'm surprised that Dagenham Dock was staffed at all to be honest.

chris11256 · 9 Feb 2020

Can believe it as well, actions over the past year or so have been of a company loosing money and desperate to cut costs.

JamesC357 · 9 Feb 2020

357 LTSRail said:
strain of franchise pressure has become very evident over the last few years - these official ticket office hour cuts in addition to frequent lack of staff at stations due to "staff shortages" have become a very common occurrence. Given the amount of crime on trains and stations on the route, I personally find this deeply unsettling. Rolling stock maintenance appears to have slackened of late too - trains externally very tired and dirty with frequent Passenger Information System and air conditioning failiures, as are the botched together Trenitalia based ticket buying facilities and website. Is a shame to see to be honest, from an operator that used to be so well regarded.

I agree, and it is a shame, but there definitely has been a decline in standards at C2C since Trenitalia took over.
Also the new ticket machines aren’t much good either, for example I tried to buy a return from Benfleet to Basildon a couple of weeks back (2 stops) and it defaulted to offering me tickets for a week in advance. Why?! And I’ve heard other complaints about them too...

357 LTSRail · 10 Feb 2020

JamesC357 said:
it defaulted to offering me tickets for a week in advance. Why?! And I’ve heard other complaints about them too

I can second that - they are so painfully slow, unreliable and unintuitive - I've seen them take payment and not print anything at all! I would say the decline set in under National Express though - they never recovered their reputation after the 2015 timetable change and things kind of went down the pan year on year after then. Still, good to see Trenitalia has been replacing signs on the route recently - a good use of money I'm sure

markymark2000 · 10 Feb 2020

How are they losing so much money though all of a sudden. It's not like there has been huge engineering works which have messed up their network or any major drop in demand. IF anything, demand for train travel is rising and therefore so should ticket sales which then means more revenue.

They run a pretty self contained network with only 2 train types. It can't be that hard for them to make money unless people are being overpaid somewhere along the lines. I really don't get it.

hwl · 10 Feb 2020

markymark2000 said:
How are they losing so much money though all of a sudden. It's not like there has been huge engineering works which have messed up their network or any major drop in demand. IF anything, demand for train travel is rising and therefore so should ticket sales which then means more revenue.

They run a pretty self contained network with only 2 train types. It can't be that hard for them to make money unless people are being overpaid somewhere along the lines. I really don't get it.

NatEx bid on getting more passengers from intermediate destinations than the traditional Fenchurch Street - Greater Southend area. (e.g. DLR interchanges for Canary Wharf, more Barking /West Ham /Upminister stops). They tried to implement the timetable changes in December 2015 but they couldn't cope with the crowding levels created / the complaints from the Southend area users so undid many of the changes . Part of the plan was more "metro" type interiors and fewer seats to carry more passengers.

NatEx found a suitable clue less buyer just in time...

The C2C network is (was?) very optimised for rolling stock around traditional city working times hence any change would need lots more stock to do a full 3 hour peak service with more intermediate stops.

The continuing growth of Docklands employment and housing increases in outer east London Riverside corridor will require a big change at some point but the extra rolling stock C2C have on order is only a fraction of what is needed to do this.

This old London reconnections article gives some background as to what went wrong 4 years ago:
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/times-changing-c2c/

Edit to add:

Many of their commuters are now work from home 1/2 days a week, new job creation has been outside traditional commuting type jobs (e.g. 40-45k net new Uber drivers) and the Greater London Area Employment Demand growth formula that underpins the financial side of all the London area franchise bids is effectively broken after having worked well for several decades. SWR and Greater Anglia are also having issues.

Friday is noticeably quieter than other weekdays now on most London commuter TOCs.

They may also have been betting on the (huge) much delayed Barking Riverside development and TfL Overground extension to provide lots of interchange passengers at Barking (currently due to open in 2021 but was originally meant to have been open by now when the franchise tender was happening)

markymark2000 · 10 Feb 2020

So NatEx basically bid on getting more pax from intermediate stations, achieved it and then couldn't cope with the extra passengers. Ok, not good. I still don't see how that could result in such a big drop of profits.

hwl · 10 Feb 2020

markymark2000 said:
So NatEx basically bid on getting more pax from intermediate stations, achieved it and then couldn't cope with the extra passengers. Ok, not good. I still don't see how that could result in such a big drop of profits.

The payments to DfT started off low and increase over the franchise period which is part of the issue (DfT payment now ramping up) combined with more home working.
On the practical side the original plan was to have all the new stock in service now instead they got 6x 387 early to run 2x 12car in the peaks but with the new Aventra's coming later (equivalent to 6x existing 12car trains so a net increase of another 4 full length trains on today). Some of the current 8car need to go upto 12car using the 357 released by the 6 new full length services. (There are still some overloaded 4car services on parts of the network in the peak that could do with lengthening too). Until the new stock comes they will struggle to fit more passengers on certain services.
NatEx could see this coming and ran!

markymark2000 · 10 Feb 2020

hwl said:
The payments to DfT started off low and increase over the franchise period which is part of the issue (DfT payment now ramping up) combined with more home working.
On the practical side the original plan was to have all the new stock in service now instead they got 6x 387 early to run 2x 12car in the peaks but with the new Aventra's coming later (equivalent to 6x existing 12car trains so a net increase of another 4 full length trains on today). Some of the current 8car need to go upto 12car using the 357 released by the 6 new full length services. (There are still some overloaded 4car services on parts of the network in the peak that could do with lengthening too). Until the new stock comes they will struggle to fit more passengers on certain services.
NatEx could see this coming and ran!

Without making this into the speculative thread, there are plenty of EMUs sat around or due to be sat around with nothing to do.

hwl · 10 Feb 2020

markymark2000 said:
Without making this into the speculative thread, there are plenty of EMUs sat around or due to be sat around with nothing to do.

They need to be pretty reliable though which immediately cuts the number!

Potential reduction in opening hours of ticket offices at ten c2c stations – tell us your views

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