Is it time to scrap ENTCS completely?

If the bus industry in this country is to succeed in getting people out of their cars and onto buses it needs to be able to provide a high quality service using modern vehicles of an appropriate size at a reasonable price. The presence of a widespread and poorly funded system of free concessionary travel creates a number of barriers for bus companies in being able to achieve this.

1. The systems of reimbursement in many areas that takes into consideration the typical fares on a route or area forces bus companies to charge artificially high fares to other passengers in order to get a reasonable level of compensation.
2. The low levels of reimbursement reduce the average income per passenger, sometimes to an unsustainable level, reducing the money available for investment for example in new vehicles and cleaning reducing the quality of service.
3. The knowledge that others do not have to pay reduces the willingness to pay for bus travel by many restricting passenger numbers and the ability for bus companies to set pricing policy. Offering free bus travel (but no similar concessions on other modes of transport) gives the impression it is the way poor people travel meaning others do not want to be associated with it.
4. The system creates artificial demand as many cardholders will make separate trips for things that could be combined simply for something to do. This means that bus companies have to use bigger buses which are more expensive to purchase, maintain and run and in the case of double deckers are seen as less desirable and safe by much of the public due to the inability to see the driver.
5. Some cardholders have a sense of entitlement that means they think they should get free travel on premium services and services outside of the permitted hours creating problems for bus companies in dealing with such people.


All of these reasons as well as the fact that many of the most disabled are unable to use bus services in any case so the system is of no benefit to them means that I believe it is time for the system to be scrapped and replaced by something much more limited in eligibility and means tested that provides wider benefits for the most vulnerable whilst requiring rich pensioners and those in paid work to pay their way like everyone else so that general fares can be reduced and investment in bus services increased without any additional cost for councils.

Never happen, unless the Government in power has a death wish...

Keep it, but fund it properly.

Bletchleyite said:

Keep it, but fund it properly.

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However well funded it is many of the problems will persist. It is basic behavioural economics that people are generally unwilling to pay for something others get for free and the attitude of some cardholders will not change (and will continue to be an issue for driver retention) unless and until they are allowed to travel in the seat of their choice on any bus in the country regardless of time of day. A 'properly funded' system would also create perverse incentives to charge ridiculously high fares if the reimbursement remains linked to the actual fare (why bother to attract other passengers if you can claim the fare is £20 single and get the council to reimburse that for all of the cardholders).

Stop giving passes to junkies and alcoholics along with "companions". The only people who should have a free pass are the elderly and/or disabled. I don't know about down south but the amount of smackheads walking on buses in Glasgow with a free pass is irritating, to say the least, even more so when you hear them say "companion driver" and their smackhead pal gets on for free as well.

Colin M said:

Stop giving passes to junkies and alcoholics along with "companions". The only people who should have a free pass are the elderly and/or disabled. I don't know about down south but the amount of smackheads walking on buses in Glasgow with a free pass is irritating, to say the least, even more so when you hear them say "companion driver" and their smackhead pal gets on for free as well.

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The ENCTS scheme is much stricter than the Scottish scheme

I can't see the scheme being scrapped, it would be political suicide. Far easier to squeeze the bus companies by cutting and cutting reimbursement rates then blame the bus companies when services get cut because they can't pay any more. I'm not against the scheme per se, however it should have been funded at a fair rate from the beginning and I've always felt the government made a mistake allowing local discretion on times etc as you end up with situations where one person can use their pass and somebody else can't. In my view either everyone should be able to use them or nobody should.

Eyersey468 said:

Far easier to squeeze the bus companies by cutting and cutting reimbursement rates then blame the bus companies when services get cut because they can't pay any more. I'm not against the scheme per se, however it should have been funded at a fair rate from the beginning

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There is no such thing as a "fair" rate, at least in the deregulated part of the country. No matter what the rate is, operators will always say it is too low. Some company bosses have said publicly that they would be in favour of scrapping ENCTS and I wouldn't be surprised if that is a widely, privately held view.

Limit to it journeys local to home as it used to be.

radamfi said:

There is no such thing as a "fair" rate, at least in the deregulated part of the country.

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I could put money on you saying that.

radamfi said:

Some company bosses have said publicly that they would be in favour of scrapping ENCTS and I wouldn't be surprised if that is a widely, privately held view.

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Not so. The bus industry was actually broadly supportive when the scheme was first introduced as they could see it as being a means of increasing patronage and revenue. Instead, Peter Shipp's comments are probably more representative of the scheme:

‘The concessionary fares scheme is probably the worst thing to happen to the bus industry. It’s not the scheme itself; it’s very good and they should keep it free, but fund it properly. It’s the way it is administered and the reimbursement formula that the local authorities can fiddle and tweak – it’s not fit for purpose.’ He went on to say that he doesn’t want them to get rid of it or implement a charge, ‘the DfT would only change it in such a way that we would lose out.’ Peter estimated that at one time approximately 90% of his fares in Scarborough were concessionary fares.

He also thinks that the qualifying age of 60 is too young, as he points out, ‘People are still working at 60.’ As is his good self! ‘I have one and can travel in London on business for free, it’s ludicrous. ’https://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/peter-shipp/

SCH117X said:

Limit to it journeys local to home as it used to be.

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You could certainly have it where you can only travel in your home area and those that are adjacent to it.

Eyersey468 said:

I can't see the scheme being scrapped, it would be political suicide. Far easier to squeeze the bus companies by cutting and cutting reimbursement rates then blame the bus companies when services get cut because they can't pay any more. I'm not against the scheme per se, however it should have been funded at a fair rate from the beginning and I've always felt the government made a mistake allowing local discretion on times etc as you end up with situations where one person can use their pass and somebody else can't. In my view either everyone should be able to use them or nobody should.

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Very much the Peter Shipp (your old gaffer) view.

It is exactly what the government have been doing. Cutting the grant to local authorities and moving the blame onto them or bus companies. Totally pernicious. Very much like the TV license cut.

I would like the scheme to stay but be funded correctly. I can't see any politician proposing to scrap it. Sadly, it would now seem that many pensioners (including some posters on here) see it as an inalienable human right. Even my mother says "well I paid into it" when clearly, she didn't. She didn't even have it when she became a pensioner!!! It would be a sure fire vote loser and the grey vote is crucial.

SCH117X said:

Limit to it journeys local to home as it used to be.

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The problem with that is that boundaries are arbitrary. For instance, someone living in Ormskirk would get a pass allowing travel in Lancashire but not to Liverpool, but a short way down the line they'd get the more useful destination of Liverpool.

Most ENCTS users aren't doing "silly" journeys like Lands End to John O'Groats. They're just using it to ensure arbitrary political boundaries don't get in the way of their local journey.

TheGrandWazoo said:

‘The concessionary fares scheme is probably the worst thing to happen to the bus industry. It’s not the scheme itself; it’s very good and they should keep it free, but fund it properly.

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You emphasise the bold, but the bit before is the key. You are always keen for people to be realistic, for people to give up on wishing for investment in buses. So by that logic ENCTS will never be funded significantly better than it is now.

It didn't take me long to find a view from Peter Newman of Ensign Buses (on another forum):

"As nearly all politically motivated schemes it was I'll (sic) thought out and very costly to the industry. I would be delighted if it was a scrapped tomorrow"

Bletchleyite said:

The problem with that is that boundaries are arbitrary. For instance, someone living in Ormskirk would get a pass allowing travel in Lancashire but not to Liverpool, but a short way down the line they'd get the more useful destination of Liverpool.

Most ENCTS users aren't doing "silly" journeys like Lands End to John O'Groats. They're just using it to ensure arbitrary political boundaries don't get in the way of their local journey.

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Which is why I said the adjacent area. It would be ridiculous for someone in Corsham not to be able to travel to Bath, but should they then be able to travel to Bristol?

However, if you don't believe that some pass users are using their passes some distance away from their homes, then you are mistaken. One of the unintended consequences of the scheme has been the decimation of the day tours market in many a coastal seaside resort as pensioners no longer pay the money for a day trip when their pass allows them to do so at no charge.

radamfi said:

You emphasise the bold, but the bit before is the key. You are always keen for people to be realistic, for people to give up on wishing for investment in buses. So by that logic ENCTS will never be funded significantly better than it is now.

It didn't take me long to find a view from Peter Newman of Ensign Buses (on another forum):

"As nearly all politically motivated schemes it was I'll (sic) thought out and very costly to the industry. I would be delighted if it was a scrapped tomorrow"

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I emphasised the bold because that's the important bit. It is the worst thing to happen but not because of the scheme per se. It's because it was properly funded up until 2011. It had discrete funding. Once that was removed and it was made part of the Formula Grant, then it was screwed.

And yes, I am keen for people to face the reality. However, I have never given up on getting better funding for bus services but by the same token, realism and pragmatism is perhaps necessary. You should perhaps understand the difference; perhaps even talk to people in the industry and expose yourself to other views.

I have friends who would rather not be directly quoted but who work for bus companies. The scheme isn't the problem - it is the funding. Until that is sorted then you will increasingly see pensioners who have a pass yet no bus on which to use them.

It really is that serious and yes, I am despondent despite BoJo loosening the purse strings. I hope that there is a pot of money that can be liberated. However, you can see what Peter Newman says..... Borismasters (cough cough)

TheGrandWazoo said:

And yes, I am keen for people to face the reality. However, I have never given up on getting better funding for bus services but by the same token, realism and pragmatism is perhaps necessary. You should perhaps understand the difference; perhaps even talk to people in the industry and expose yourself to other views.

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I could quote you countless times saying "where's the money coming from?" You are therefore well aware of the reality. Contrary views are widely expressed on here so it isn't very hard to find them!

I've faced reality and know that bus funding will never be available. It is better to write off the UK (in general and not just transport) and concentrate on other countries.

Bletchleyite said:

Keep it, but fund it properly.

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100% agree with this. Bus operators will not make a song and dance about it, but the amount they get per trip is truly pitiful

Instead of scrapping it, I would go the other way and bring ENCTS rules in line with the Scottish pass, unlimited travel 24/7 and on long distance coach services.

radamfi said:

I could quote you countless times saying "where's the money coming from?" You are therefore well aware of the reality. Contrary views are widely expressed on here so it isn't very hard to find them!

I've faced reality and know that bus funding will never be available. It is better to write off the UK (in general and not just transport) and concentrate on other countries.

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Yes, you can and that's fine. Hence why my post above mentions hope (against experience) and my despondency that BoJo's stirring words will count for little. Not sure what you're misconstruing

Whilst you may seek to write off the UK (and yes, it isn't perfect), the grass isn't always greener. Anyway, I wish you well on your emigration.

Samuel88 said:

Instead of scrapping it, I would go the other and bring ENCTS rules in line with the Scottish pass, unlimited travel 24/7 and on long distance coach services.

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So.... given that the current scheme is underfunded, how do you propose to fund an extended scheme?

TheGrandWazoo said:

So.... given that the current scheme is underfunded, how do you propose to fund an extended scheme?

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Fund it centrally, I agree it’s deeply unfair to make local councils shoulder the blame.

Samuel88 said:

Fund it centrally, I agree it’s deeply unfair to make local councils shoulder the blame.

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No, you miss the point. How do you get the funding?

You can either increase taxes or you can cut something else? So what's it to be? If it's taxation, what are you going to tax? If it's cuts, what are you cutting?

And what's your rationale for that (and expanding the coverage)?

TheGrandWazoo said:

No, you miss the point. How do you get the funding?

You can either increase taxes or you can cut something else? So what's it to be? If it's taxation, what are you going to tax? If it's cuts, what are you cutting?

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Raise fuel duty, introduce road pricing there’s lot’s that could be done to fund ENCTS if the government had the will, but of course they don’t...

Samuel88 said:

Raise fuel duty, introduce road pricing there’s lot’s that could be done to fund ENCTS if the government had the will, but of course they don’t...

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Increase fuel duty and introduce road pricing so that Gerald and Marjorie don't need to pay for the National Express tickets.... electoral suicide

It is relevant - roughly how old are you?

Samuel88 said:

Never happen, unless the Government in power has a death wish...

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I bet it will. The day before I am entitled to one!

I totally agree with the points the OP has made. There has to be a system in place, but the current system is fatally flawed. Bus companies simply cut services more and more, while councils cannot afford to subsidise buses.

End result; people have free travel but no bus to travel on.

Samuel88 said:

Raise fuel duty, introduce road pricing there’s lot’s that could be done to fund ENCTS if the government had the will, but of course they don’t...

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Or they could go back to the days when people with passes had to pay IIRC 40p to travel on buses. Back then people used the pass for a genuine reason(ie: trip to the shops and back or going to the hospital) yet now what you have is lazy fat barstewards with passes using them to go one or 2 stops because they can't be bothered walking the length of themselves. Or my personal favourite, seeing a junkie literally sprinting for the bus, walking stick under the arm and promptly slapping their pass onto the machine for a free run at the taxpayer's expense.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Increase fuel duty and introduce road pricing so that Gerald and Marjorie don't need to pay for the National Express tickets.... electoral suicide

It is relevant - roughly how old are you?

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In my early 30’s and I’ll admit I have a pass on the grounds of disability. But I genuinely needed my pass as I literally wouldn’t have been able to afford going to work without it

Colin M said:

Or they could go back to the days when people with passes had to pay IIRC 40p to travel on buses. Back then people used the pass for a genuine reason(ie: trip to the shops and back or going to the hospital) yet now what you have is lazy fat barstewards with passes using them to go one or 2 stops because they can't be bothered walking the length of themselves. Or my personal favourite, seeing a junkie literally sprinting for the bus, walking stick under the arm and promptly slapping their pass onto the machine for a free run at the taxpayer's expense.

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I can't see why it can't be a smartcard that can store credit, so you pay a small fee to use buses for leisure purposes and when you have a trip to a doctor/hospital or whatever, there's a means to get a refund/credit. That way you have free travel when you need it, but contribute a small amount when travel is non essential (and actually help fund the buses directly).

I realise some people do, or at least claim they do, pay voluntarily because they want to do their bit to keep local buses running.

jon0844 said:

I can't see why it can't be a smartcard that can store credit, so you pay a small fee to use buses for leisure purposes and when you have a trip to a doctor/hospital or whatever, there's a means to get a refund/credit. That way you have free travel when you need it, but contribute a small amount when travel is non essential (and actually help fund the buses directly).

I realise some people do, or at least claim they do, pay voluntarily because they want to do their bit to keep local buses running.

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That wouldn't work as you'd then have people just claiming every single journey was a trip to the doctors just so they can get a free ride.

The point is ENCTS is here now, and once something is given to the electorate, especially to a section that is far more likely to vote for one political party over another, it’s frankly going to be impossible to take it away

Samuel88 said:

In my early 30’s and I’ll admit I have a pass on the grounds of disability. But I genuinely needed my pass as I literally wouldn’t have been able to afford going to work without it

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So you should remember the fuel protests in 2000, even if you weren't directly affected. Those protests have seriously impacted government policy ever since.

ENCTS was a political bribe and it was funded initially. However, it subsequently hasn't. Whilst I appreciate your position, I'm sure there are doubtless more people who would also say that they too wouldn't be able to afford going to work if you put three pence a litre on fuel just so pass holders can travel when and where they like. It would be politically toxic.