They'd need to get their surgery to validate the ticket.
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Is it time to scrap ENTCS completely?
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They'd need to get their surgery to validate the ticket.
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And how would a doctors surgery or hospital validate a smartcard ticket? Are you proposing supplying every single last doctors surgery and hospital with some form of ticket machine that can validate a smartcard thus adding to the workload of medical staff who are underpaid and worked to the bone as it is?
Newcastle has a scheme where if you’re travelling with a pass before 9:30 if you show an appointment letter to the driver you can travel free
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
As I tried to explain earlier, for every scheme that is targeted at "genuine claimants" as you may say, there is always areas where it can be exploited.
The scheme should've been a discount card so that it retained some form of price elasticity of demand. Either that or you had to claim the pass and your pension would be deducted £2/wk and the funds then used the fund the scheme. That would raise some £1.2bn - enough to cover the scheme? However, that would require hypothecation of funds and the treasury doesn't like that
Woah, exaggeration much?
My local surgery has automated things quite a bit using technology. The NHS desperately needs to implement new technology to improve services, and it would make sense to implement something that enables things like validating parking (thus offering free parking to those staying in hospital even if visitors have to pay, or can perhaps get discounts over time etc) and potentially validating travel.
I get people are 'worked to the bone' but can't see why someone who has an appointment can't tap in upon arrival or before departure, to flag their pass.
Busaholic
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Make the ENCTS scheme 9.30 a.m. to 11 p.m. Monday to Friday and 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. Saturdays and Sundays, when morning peak restrictions are irrelevant. Then fund it properly!
That's another possible way of doing it. Get an appointment and have a barcode generated on the letter that can be used for travel. That also means that, in theory, you can see if someone travelled even if they didn't turn up for the appointment!
But so few buses run outside of the times you stated on Saturdays and Sundays would councils actually save any money by implementing it?
Qwerty133
Established Member
Sorry but that is plainly untrue.
If a job paid so little that it didn't cover the bus fare for a reasonable distance it'd simply wouldn't be worth the employers time to advertise (considering it'd have to be less than one hour per day on minimum wage*) and any job that covers the transport is better than being on benefits financially.
*Excluding apprentices for whom I believe employers should have to cover public transport costs for considering the exceptionally low pay and the usual need to travel to a training provider.
And how to you propose to pay for all this equipment that would allow people to tap in and out at doctors surgeries and hospitals? Who pays for it? Where does the money come from? Ticketing equipment isn't cheap you know!
You’re assuming I only had to take one bus to get to work. I actually had to travel from North West London to Canary Wharf 5 days a week... (no I didn’t work in finance)
Busaholic
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On a neighbouring thread there are some arguing the toss about use of the passes on night buses - this would make the position clear. No, it'd probably save very little to the councils, probably none in some areas, but it'd bring clarity.
A cheap tablet with the right software, much like that now used by the railway to sell tickets, and a card reader would suffice. Heck, you can even get the hardware for an iPhone or Android device.
Add the card reader to the systems in GP surgeries already to manage appointments.
I accept the Government would spend a fortune and make a right mess of the whole thing, but now most buses are equipped with modern ticket machines that are fully connected (to enable bus tracking, Wi-Fi etc) I am talking about how we can embrace technology to improve things over time.
Staying as we are isn't, to me, an option. However, I am not naïve enough to think my suggestion is going to happen. I am sure we'll plod on with our flawed system until people can't get to see their doctor at all. Then when they're sufficiently ill, they can call an ambulance instead and tie up A&E instead.
Qwerty133
Established Member
Based on 46 weeks of work a year on an annual pass that works out as £3.69 per day or 27 minutes of work at minimum wage and is a lot less than many others have to pay. Presumably not all of your coworkers are ENCTS holders and therefore have to pay similar (if not more considering many low wage workers have been priced out of London).
Unfortunately I couldn’t afford to spend nearly £4000 upfront on a yearly 1-6 Travelcard... (also many of my co-workers actually lived a short walk away, remember the area surrounding Canary Wharf is one of the most deprived in London)
Qwerty133
Established Member
Then you catch the bus the whole way for £848 a year or use the season ticket loan scheme that almost every half decent employer in London offers. Your non disabled colleagues were obviously able to afford to get to work somehow so it must have been possible on the wages that they were offering. I sometimes wonder whether some ENCTS commuters simply consider themselves too special to pay bus fares.
How often did you get paid? Surely you could buy weekly or monthly tickets?
I do find it rather amazing that someone can have a job and not be able to afford travel. How the hell does everyone else do it? We have a minimum wage.
Catch a bus from Uxbridge to Canary Wharf, are you living in a dreamland? And no, the well known highly regarded supermarket beginning with W did not offer a season ticket loan.
Not with the rent and social care I was paying...
It's ironic that the price per litre was around 70p or so then? The problems really hit when it was approaching £1/litre during the worst of it.
Now we're around the £1.20/litre mark. Even accounting for inflation, it seems that the protests were soon forgotten about.
Qwerty133
Established Member
And there's the real issue. It is not up to bus companies to subsidise social care.
Minimum wage changes with age, the younger you are the less you get.
At what point did anyone say bus companies were subsidising social care?
This, when I started working I got £6 an hour...
NorthernSpirit
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The ENTCS scheme needs to be heavily overhauled.
One way of doing this is to change the start time from 0930 to 1030 in the morning and the end time from 2300 to 2100 which would allow operators an extra hour in the morning and an extra two in the evening to raise revenue which is vital to keep the service going, the bus cannot run on fresh air and the driver won't work for free.
The alternative is to introduce an afternoon peak restriction between 1600 and 1830 meaning the ENTCS pass won't qualify for free travel in these times, however the disabled (orange stripe) version would remain valid as the holder could be blind, deaf or have a hidden disability e.g autism (and there are different grades to those who are autisic, some are mild and some are servere).
The restriction would only apply to the senior (blue stripe) version, as Ethel and Doris may simply be busing it around the county / unitary for the day as its free but at what cost? If the route doesn't make any cash - its withdrawn, as operators won't waste valuble resources that could go towards improving a route that does make cash.
The other solution would be limiting the pass to certain journey's of the day e.g. the pass is valid on journeys between 0930 and 1230 into the nearest town / city with reasonable facilities, the return journey must be made between 1345 and 1600. Which would cut down on those who are just travelling for the sake of it. Reasonable facilities includes access to NHS services such as doctors surgery and hospital, access to a range of retailers, access to financial services which would include the post office. The pass would be restriction free at the weekends.
My solutions are by all means not brilliant but its a start.
One way of doing this is to change the start time from 0930 to 1030 in the morning and the end time from 2300 to 2100 which would allow operators an extra hour in the morning and an extra two in the evening to raise revenue which is vital to keep the service going, the bus cannot run on fresh air and the driver won't work for free.
The alternative is to introduce an afternoon peak restriction between 1600 and 1830 meaning the ENTCS pass won't qualify for free travel in these times, however the disabled (orange stripe) version would remain valid as the holder could be blind, deaf or have a hidden disability e.g autism (and there are different grades to those who are autisic, some are mild and some are servere).
The restriction would only apply to the senior (blue stripe) version, as Ethel and Doris may simply be busing it around the county / unitary for the day as its free but at what cost? If the route doesn't make any cash - its withdrawn, as operators won't waste valuble resources that could go towards improving a route that does make cash.
The other solution would be limiting the pass to certain journey's of the day e.g. the pass is valid on journeys between 0930 and 1230 into the nearest town / city with reasonable facilities, the return journey must be made between 1345 and 1600. Which would cut down on those who are just travelling for the sake of it. Reasonable facilities includes access to NHS services such as doctors surgery and hospital, access to a range of retailers, access to financial services which would include the post office. The pass would be restriction free at the weekends.
My solutions are by all means not brilliant but its a start.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Fuel prices were about 80p/litre when the fuel protest hit. However, it was the causation that was the issue as it was apparent because of the fuel duty escalator. When the price subsequently increased, it was more macro reasons. The FDE was effectively removed after the fuel protests and indeed, fuel duty has been frozen since 2011.
Think we're drifting a bit here.
I'm sure this is one of many instances where we have someone who is on minimum wage (but it could be a pension) and is struggling to make ends meet whether their outgoings are social care, utilities, rent or whatever. However, should it be that a bus company should effectively receive a derisory amount because of that, and that the burden is increasingly shifted onto other fare paying passengers? That does seem that the bus company is getting the thin end of the wedge. We wouldn't expect supermarkets to give people half priced food (but with amenity foods like booze and chocolate excluded) on account of holding a pass....?
To be fair, in my case are the bus companies actually ‘loosing out’? I’m sure TfL pay those operators regardless of what ticket is used.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
No but I was talking about the industry in general.
However, the books are balanced somehow and we know the financial pressures that TfL are under.
Busaholic
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Your solution is a scrappage scheme. The rag-bag of journeys which would still be allowable would make bus travel in England similar to rail travel i.e. an accountant-led scheme to wring every last penny out of susceptible people whose only 'crime' is to wish to travel between two places with the minimum of fuss, a degree of comfort and without being harassed, but who constantly come up against employees of TOCs whose avowed intention is to make sure none of those situations pertain if they can help it.
Anyway, how do you differentiate 'senior' and disabled? Is there some magic formula whereby, if you acquire an ENCTS pass at retirement age i.e. based on your age alone that you miraculously retain all your abilities and faculties until you suddenly drop down dead from old age, even assuming you still had them when you reached 65 or whatever? I'm on my third pass, still with the same photo which is a sobering reminder to self that I once looked a lot younger, even then, and if I compared my physical ableness then and now, there'd be no comparison. So, I'd be required to provide some 'proof' of my disability under your scheme? Or, perhaps not, just as I can't claim Disability Living Allowance because new entrants can only be under 18, I should just pay if I want to use the bus, or go without. I know what I think of that 'solution,'
It's interesting how so very many people are keen to see the scheme "properly funded" who would also not be at all keen to see themselves paying for it. For example, a significant increase in Vehicle Excise Duty or Fuel Duty should do the trick. But those are probably worse actions politically than cutting the free travel would be.
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