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Caledonian Sleeper

Samuel88

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Yes, but the falsehood of the point that some were making above, that they should go beyond the requirements of the conditions of travel, is what I was getting at.

Under the consumer rights act the law states that if a hotel provider cannot give you a room at the hotel you booked, they must provide an alternative.
As the Sleeper provides overnight accommodation I would argue that Serco’s obligations are the same.
 
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Highland37

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Really? You do know Sleeper bookings are up and notably higher than last year? Not sure they're in as desperate need of the PR as some on here like to think...

And I'm referring to the National Rail Conditions of Travel and/or their Guest Charter. Any requirement in there?


Terrible PR? Doesn't seem to be harming patronage that much... see above.

Passengers already pay less than half it costs for them to be on the train. How can that be "over-priced"?! Who should fund the massive reduction in prices you suggest? It's down to either Serco (who already lose millions running the franchise, so I'd count them out) or even more taxpayers' money to subsidise the service even further. Is that a fair use of such funds?

Yes. Really awful PR. One of the worst in the railway industry. Did you see that video I posted above? Here it is again. The comments aren't good reading. If you really think the sleeper isn't getting widespread PR, well you need to read and listen more widely.


Why did the ticket prices go up so much? The fleet was paid for by the public sector no? So where is the extra money going to?
 

Mathew S

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Under the consumer rights act the law states that if a hotel provider cannot give you a room at the hotel you booked, they must provide an alternative.
As the Sleeper provides overnight accommodation I would argue that Serco’s obligations are the same.
Where in the consumer rights act does it say that? Certainly providing alternative accommodation would be one way of a hotel, or a sleeper train operator, fulfilling its obligations under the act, but to be honest so would offering a full refund.
 

Struner

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But there is this. I do notice that there is talk of the ticket “being used”
Ah yes

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your
Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably
can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if
necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

I think LNER could argue with some justification that it's unreasonable to carry TPE, Avanti, XC, HT and GC passengers when they're hardly running any trains to carry the normal LNER passengers in the first place
 

jagardner1984

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Yes. Really awful PR. One of the worst in the railway industry. Did you see that video I posted above? Here it is again. The comments aren't good reading. If you really think the sleeper isn't getting widespread PR, well you need to read and listen more widely.


Why did the ticket prices go up so much? The fleet was paid for by the public sector no? So where is the extra money going to?

my understanding is public money paid for the rolling stock, public money subsidises each and every passenger. Serco’s increased prices and increased passenger numbers should theoretically reduce that subsidy over the length of the franchise. It is perhaps admirable to “try” and make it more self sufficient (it being a pretty hard sell as a “lifeline” service given the number of commercial alternatives, and thus ripe for closure/cuts). Personally I don’t think the execution of that has been great. I’m priced off the service in most circumstances. But I think the people who think slapping a new Vinyl on a Mk3 and keep going for the next 30 years are kidding themselves on. The Mk5s were needed and arguably give the service a much more certain future, for political embarrassment reasons.
 

Samuel88

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Is the Caledonian sleeper even necessary? Do people really need to travel overnight to Scotland in beds? How about replacing the sleeper with an all seater train?
 

alistairlees

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Is the Caledonian sleeper even necessary? Do people really need to travel overnight to Scotland in beds? How about replacing the sleeper with an all seater train?
People evidently want to - it’s often full. Whether they need to is a rather more subjective matter. After all, does anybody need to do anything?

This might be better off on the Speculative Ideas section.
 

cb a1

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Is the Caledonian sleeper even necessary? Do people really need to travel overnight to Scotland in beds? How about replacing the sleeper with an all seater train?
If I'm going to London on business, it makes sense to make sure I'm going to get as much out of the day as possible.

To do that, I need a reasonable night's sleep. The sleeper isn't a fantastic night's sleep but it does the job. Due to a booking error, I was once allocated a seat going to London - nowhere near as good a sleep as horizontal in a bed.
 

47271

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It's absolutely true that Highlander bookings, and prices charged, are substantially up on where they were two or three years ago.

However, it's also true that on a day to day basis the quality of service falls substantially short of those prices. Not just whether they put you up in an hotel if the train's cancelled, but shoddy cabin cleaning, catering failures, terrible breakfasts in cardboard boxes, staff attitude in many cases, and technical basics like ride quality. This can only last for so long. Anyone who thinks that CS don't need to bother about getting good coverage is kidding themselves.
 

Samuel88

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It's absolutely true that Highlander bookings, and prices charged, are substantially up on where they were two or three years ago.

However, it's also true that on a day to day basis the quality of service falls substantially short of those prices. Not just whether they put you up in an hotel if the train's cancelled, but shoddy cabin cleaning, catering failures, terrible breakfasts in cardboard boxes, staff attitude in many cases, and technical basics like ride quality. This can only last for so long. Anyone who thinks that CS don't need to bother about getting good coverage is kidding themselves.
I agree with all this. Why on Earth is Serco, a company more used to transporting prisoners, allowed to operate a train franchise? It should never have been separated from Scotrail.
 

JonathanH

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Serco, a company more used to transporting prisoners

Serco do not only transport prisoners. They act across a whole range of different sectors, including at one point other rail franchises. They happened to bid to run Caledonian Sleeper and had, what was deemed by the people who make the decisions, the best bid.
 

Flying Snail

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Where in the consumer rights act does it say that? Certainly providing alternative accommodation would be one way of a hotel, or a sleeper train operator, fulfilling its obligations under the act, but to be honest so would offering a full refund.

The few times I or someone I know have had issues with hotels not being able to accommodate them alternatives have been sourced by the original hotels, unlike the sleeper this is something that most hotels will rarely need to do. IMO it is not right that during disruption CS are able to basically ignore their role as a provider of a hotel room and pretend like the transport element (which is by far the cheapest part of their rates) is the only thing relevant to their customers.

It would not have been beyond their ability to overnight their sets in Euston, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William and offer intending passengers the facility of a night's sleep and daytime transport for Monday.
 

MrEd

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It's absolutely true that Highlander bookings, and prices charged, are substantially up on where they were two or three years ago.

However, it's also true that on a day to day basis the quality of service falls substantially short of those prices. Not just whether they put you up in an hotel if the train's cancelled, but shoddy cabin cleaning, catering failures, terrible breakfasts in cardboard boxes, staff attitude in many cases, and technical basics like ride quality. This can only last for so long. Anyone who thinks that CS don't need to bother about getting good coverage is kidding themselves.

I think that the major problem facing CS at the moment is consistency. When everything on the Mk5s works well and you get a full complement of well trained, enthusiastic staff members, it genuinely is a world class rail travel experience- my trip on the Mk5s to Spean Bridge on January 22nd-23rd is undoubtedly the most enjoyable trip I’ve ever had on the sleeper (my allocated club room was in perfect working order and everything in it worked as it should, there was lots of hot water in the shower, I got a good sleep, the food was excellent and a full menu was on offer both in the evening and in the morning, I got a fantastic welcome from the lovely and enthusiastic Fort William crew) and I left the train at Spean feeling extremely happy with the experience and smiling about it for the rest of the day. Then I look back to the (memorable for all the wrong reasons) experience of 5th-6th November going up to Inverness which was a litany of all the problems you describe (not helped by the fact that the train was running two hours late, and the somewhat surly and inexperienced staff seemed away with the fairies and oblivious to many of the issues). I will never know this, but a good number of those travelling that night in November may well (justifiably) have been put off the sleeper. CS need to get it right every night, and I just don’t think that they are even close to achieving that at the moment. I am a huge supporter of the sleeper and desperately want it to succeed, but there are only so many PR disasters that it can handle surely?

While the guy’s video posted earlier seems a little harsh at times, and I would not write the sleeper off anywhere near as quickly as he did, some of his criticisms about e.g. the shower not working seem perfectly valid in the light of the high fares and the expectations generated by the marketing. I do sympathise with his frustration over the late running- while the long single line sections are a feature of the Highland Main Line and can and do adversely impact punctuality (and are not CS’ fault in the slightest), I do feel that the sleeper staff could be a wee bit more proactive in these circumstances in keeping passengers informed and giving updates on ETA etc. Certainly when the train was running two hours late up the HML back in November, there seemed to be a lot of shrugging shoulders when passengers asked when they were likely to reach Inverness- surely even an educated guess would be more helpful for the customers, who may have onward connections to consider (or even are getting picked up by taxi drivers/friends/family- and will need to update these people)? The staff on the Fort William route seem to be much better at giving educated guesses as to ETA based on where the train might be held to pass southbound traffic on the single line, and where it might be possible to make up a few minutes here and there.

As an aside, I recognised from the video the sulky team leader who was on duty in the lounge car when I travelled up in November that time- the absolute polar opposite of the truly lovely crew I travelled with to Spean Bridge a couple of weeks back. Unless he’s a relatively new staff member who’s mellowed since I travelled with him, I don’t suppose his attitude helped the reviewer’s perception of the service much... issues like the non-availability of the requested breakfast might have been handled better by a more pro-active and customer-friendly crew member.
 

158756

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It really doesn't make any difference (whether it should or not is something for a speculative ideas thread). The sleeper is, when it comes to passenger rights in the event of disruption, just another train.

Perhaps then it should be advertised and ticketed just like any other train, rather than as a hotel on wheels?
 

marks87

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And given the terrible PR the service is getting from its own passengers, it would seem to be a good idea. The service is widely regarded as over priced and unreliable. It needs to change in its attitude to customers, or massively reduce prices.

The possible difficulties some people have with sleeping on a train notwithstanding, I'm not sure it can be seen as over-priced.

Considering you get your travel and hotel all in one, and factoring in a premium for no "wasted" travel time, then by London accommodation prices it's quite reasonable even for a single person in a Club room.

Indeed, I made precisely this demonstration to my work to persuade them to book me a Club room last week - which officially meant I was getting a first class ticket and that's a near-universal no-no for where I find myself in the food chain (even my boss and their boss don't get first class...and I think even their boss too). So there must have been something highly persuasive in the argument.
 

Mathew S

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IMO it is not right that during disruption CS are able to basically ignore their role as a provider of a hotel room and pretend like the transport element (which is by far the cheapest part of their rates) is the only thing relevant to their customers.

Perhaps then it should be advertised and ticketed just like any other train, rather than as a hotel on wheels?

I agree with both of you, but that doesn't make it so. Like it or not, CS are sticking to their side of the contract.
 

gingerheid

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Yes. Really awful PR. One of the worst in the railway industry. Did you see that video I posted above? Here it is again. The comments aren't good reading. If you really think the sleeper isn't getting widespread PR, well you need to read and listen more widely.

So much of this thread could be summarised as:
- It's not cheap and / or perfect, and it's not as cheap and / or perfect as it could and / or should be.

This is true, and unnecessarily so as they're really had long enough to sort some of this stuff out by now.

But I'm still using it more than double what I did before, as it's still the best way to travel between Scotland and England, and it's still better than it was before. Now I am booking a journey less than a week after the last one was nearly 5 hours late... but.. whatever. I've been five hours late between Scotland and England before but without a bed to lie on. It's still the best way to travel. And this one kind of isn't costing me so much...
 
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MDB1images

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Given the flooding just north of Carlisle I’d be very surprised if that was the case .

Pretty sure there's flooding Preston to Lancaster, potential landslip between Oxenholme to Penrith and as you say flooding Carlisle to Lockerbie.

Unless things have moved quicker than thought I'd be surprised if it goes up WCML but maybe ECML.
 

158756

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Pretty sure there's flooding Preston to Lancaster, potential landslip between Oxenholme to Penrith and as you say flooding Carlisle to Lockerbie.

Unless things have moved quicker than thought I'd be surprised if it goes up WCML but maybe ECML.

The Sleeper isn't going anywhere, but there is a freight train showing as having passed through Preston and Lancaster, still moving towards Carlisle at the moment, so someone must think the line is clear. Obviously if it isn't though a load of containers getting stuck in the middle of nowhere is much less of an issue than a train full of passengers.
 

Far north 37

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Pretty sure there's flooding Preston to Lancaster, potential landslip between Oxenholme to Penrith and as you say flooding Carlisle to Lockerbie.

Unless things have moved quicker than thought I'd be surprised if it goes up WCML but maybe ECML.
The sleepers were cancelled early yesterday so wouldnt of run regardless even if any lines had been reopened.
 
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Is the Caledonian sleeper even necessary? Do people really need to travel overnight to Scotland in beds? How about replacing the sleeper with an all seater train?

I live in the Highlands but in recent years I've had significant periods of time working throughout England. The sleeper often significantly added to my quality of life. Being able to travel whilst I slept meant more quality time at home with my family at either end of the working week.
From London flights were usually a viable alternative. When working in the Midlands or NW England the flights didn't and don't exist and the sleeper was the only way to avoid spending the best part of a day at either end of the week travelling (with the consequent impact on family life).
The increased costs of a berth and the inability to get any useful rest in the new seats has made the service unviable for me, this has been a factor (amongst others) in my decision to change jobs.
I'm not sure that constitutes 'essential' but a this change in thr service influenced a change in my lifestyle. I find it frustrating that this largely publicly funded service is effectively no longer available to me.
With respect to your point about seats; personally a decent reclining seat in a comfortable environment at a reasonable price would have suited me. The current seated coach comes nowhere near meeting this.
 

MadCommuter

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What do the staff do when the trains don't run? I presume they will travel as passengers to aid operations for the rest of the week, but otherwise have a day off?
 

BRX

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I'm interested in the comments that the sleeper is now better loaded than it was pre mk5s. Does that mean it's bringing in more revenue than it was before?
 

Far north 37

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I'm interested in the comments that the sleeper is now better loaded than it was pre mk5s. Does that mean it's bringing in more revenue than it was before?
I would imagine so with increase in berth and seat prices although not sure if operational costs are higher with the new stock not sure how much delay repay they have had to fork out since the new stock has been introduced
 

6Z09

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I'm interested in the comments that the sleeper is now better loaded than it was pre mk5s. Does that mean it's bringing in more revenue than it was before?
Unlikely given the problems faced most nights! Will anyone be paying full fare? I imagine most receive a refund of some sort! The plumbing issues seem to be still the most persistent problem.
 

Highland37

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So much of this thread could be summarised as:
- It's not cheap and / or perfect, and it's not as cheap and / or perfect as it could and / or should be.

Alternatively it's the most expensive (standard fare) method of getting from the Highlands to London and least reliable. I don't know if these statements are true but I would be surprised if there was any service less reliable than the sleeper.
 

leightonbd

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Unlikely given the problems faced most nights! Will anyone be paying full fare? I imagine most receive a refund of some sort! The plumbing issues seem to be still the most persistent problem.

Pertinent - this is anecdotal, admittedly, but out of three runs on the new stock I’ve had two refunds.

The one run that did go to plan allows me to say that I find the shower distinctly underwhelming, reminiscent of the youth hostel put-the-coin-in-the-slot-and-hope-you-finish-before-the-money-runs-out experience. Probably OK if you were going on the hill and expecting to get a bit grubby (or, in my case, going home; I took my evening shower in the Euston lounge) but not how I would want to start a working day.

I see a difference between the Highlander and the Lowlander. The former will have some business users but also lends itself to the leisure/ experience/ destination type of marketing, partly due to the longer travel time which makes the lounge car more useful. The Lowlander is much more about functionality: people may have a drink but will generally have eaten before boarding. 2300 (and arriving at 7 am) is pretty late for anything more than a snack and a nightcap. You don’t want the ‘experience of a night time’; you want a good kip and a decent hot shower. The same stock (and the same advertising) is doing two different jobs.
 

Bletchleyite

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I see a difference between the Highlander and the Lowlander. The former will have some business users but also lends itself to the leisure/ experience/ destination type of marketing, partly due to the longer travel time which makes the lounge car more useful. The Lowlander is much more about functionality: people may have a drink but will generally have eaten before boarding. 2300 (and arriving at 7 am) is pretty late for anything more than a snack and a nightcap. You don’t want the ‘experience of a night time’; you want a good kip and a decent hot shower. The same stock (and the same advertising) is doing two different jobs.

TBH I see little point in either breakfast or a shower on the Lowlander. It would be better to have decent shower facilities at the main destinations ("decent" does not equal tiny poorly maintained cubicles in the First Class lounge with a long queue, but rather something of the quality of a premium hotel room's bathroom with plenty of changing space, sink/shower/loo and a quality power shower, and premium-branded fixtures i.e. the likes of Hansgrohe) and to pick up breakfast on arrival, having slept for the whole time on board.

To be fair, a lot of the station shower facilities do meet this requirement (I've used the ones at Glasgow Central and the ones in the station at Fort William and both are very nice) but you need enough of them that everyone who wants one will be able to walk straight in.
 

Mordac

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Serco do not only transport prisoners. They act across a whole range of different sectors, including at one point other rail franchises. They happened to bid to run Caledonian Sleeper and had, what was deemed by the people who make the decisions, the best bid.
They run the Dubai Metro, for instance, which works pretty well.
 

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