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Making sense of the VRR zones (Duesseldorf, Dortmund etc)

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AnkleBoots

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I thought I understood the VRR zone system and that a B ticket simply allowed travel to the adjacent zone. https://www.vrr.de/en/tickets-fares/tariff-zones-regions-fare-categories/

However I have now learnt that a B ticketholder can allow travel to 2 zones away eg. from Muelheim an der Ruhr, as far as Bochum or Duesseldorf.

So if you start in Bochum and want to go to Duesseldorf and back, you'd need a D day ticket if bought as paper ticket.

Could you instead buy a B day ticket on the app specifying a notional starting point of Muelheim an der Ruhr?
 
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Aictos

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I thought I understood the VRR zone system and that a B ticket simply allowed travel to the adjacent zone. https://www.vrr.de/en/tickets-fares/tariff-zones-regions-fare-categories/

However I have now learnt that a B ticketholder can allow travel to 2 zones away eg. from Muelheim an der Ruhr, as far as Bochum or Duesseldorf.

So if you start in Bochum and want to go to Duesseldorf and back, you'd need a D day ticket if bought as paper ticket.

Could you instead buy a B day ticket on the app specifying a notional starting point of Muelheim an der Ruhr?

I don’t know as I like to know the answer too, equally what’s the best ticket to buy for local transport within the Dortmund city limits?
 

paddington

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However I have now learnt that a B ticketholder can allow travel to 2 zones away eg. from Muelheim an der Ruhr, as far as Bochum or Duesseldorf.

Where and how did you learn this? It is not my understanding.

The rules say: "In fare category B, select a central fare zone from which you can travel into the directly adjacent fare zones."

When I visited the VRR area last year I somehow got into a discussion with a German person on how only Germans could come up with such a complicated system of tickets, but in fact I also posed him a very similar question to yours and this was what he told me:

From Zone 34 Muelheim/Ruhr, Zone 43 Duesseldorf Mitte/Nord is not an adjacent zone, so a B ticket starting in Zone 34 would not be valid to go there.

If you had a B ticket starting either in Zone 33 or Zone 44, both these are adjacent to 34 and 43. So if you buy a B ticket from zone 33 you can go to 34, then back to 33 and then to 43. 34-33-43 might be a direct ride on a single train. Thus you have travelled two zones away - but your ticket did not start at the same place as you started that particular ride.

So if you wanted to travel from Bochum to Duesseldorf and back, you would need to use *two* B tickets, one starting in Zone 35 Essen Mitte/Nord and another starting in Zone 33 Duisburg Mitte/Sud. This would only be valid on the route through Essen and Duisburg. Two B tickets are still slightly cheaper than a D ticket.

Furthermore, you can't buy the first ticket and then immediately hop on the train in Bochum. You have to buy the first ticket 20-30 minutes in advance - enough time that you could have really used it on a train from (the last stop in the zone of) Essen to Bochum.

Basically, if you were using a paper B ticket you would need to physically stamp that ticket in Essen if you wished to travel two zones from Bochum (via Essen). The app allows you to stamp a ticket in Essen virtually, but you are supposed to be in Essen when you do that.
 

AnkleBoots

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When I visited the VRR area last year I somehow got into a discussion with a German person on how only Germans could come up with such a complicated system of tickets
I do find it complicated but also impressive in its consistency throughout the region and that a passenger can make a long journey on different modes and transport providers using just one ticket. (It would be even better if they were able to align with the rest of the NRW).

As a comparison, travelling from a village near Stockport to a village near Southport would not be so simple as buying a single D ticket.
 

Bletchleyite

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There is a UK example of a German style fairly complex (though not quite that complex) zonal scheme - Merseytravel. It would be interesting to know if it was copied from a German city or if they came up with it themselves.
 

AnkleBoots

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Where and how did you learn this?

The VRR website shows the following for journeys between main stations on the S1 train. Both examples are B.

23:45Uhr
Mülheim a.d. Ruhr, Hauptbahnhof
Gleis 2
S1
S-BahnS1 RichtungDortmund Hbf Ankunft 00:12Uhr
27 Min. (8 Zwischenhalte)
00:12Uhr
Bochum, Hbf
Gleis 8

Tarifgebiete: 34 35 36
Waben: 342 350 356 368 360


23:46Uhr
Mülheim a.d. Ruhr, Hauptbahnhof
Gleis 5
S1
S-BahnS1 RichtungSolingen Hbf Ankunft 00:23Uhr
37 Min. (12 Zwischenhalte)
00:23Uhr
Düsseldorf, Hbf
Gleis 11


Tarifgebiete: 34 33 43
Waben: 340 330 332 434 432 430

I don't fully understand the Waben - I guess 340 is the most central zone of 34 but it is interesting that 340 only appears in example 2 above.
 

duesselmartin

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There are a lot of complains about the the VRR fare system as the average passenger has difficulty understanding it. My B Zone ticket based in Duisburg is valid in Duisburg, Düsseldorf and Krefeld. I can travel Düsseldorf to Krefeld via Duisburg but not Düsseldorf to Krefeld in a direct service calling at Meerbusch.
It makes sense once you understand the "honey combe" system but for the average passenger it does not.
 

paddington

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The VRR website shows the following for journeys between main stations on the S1 train. Both examples are B.

I don't fully understand the Waben - I guess 340 is the most central zone of 34 but it is interesting that 340 only appears in example 2 above.

I cannot find a map showing the full honeycombs. I didn't even know that the zones were further divided into honeycombs. But it looks like the zones are just the official

I have done a bit more reading and what I understand is that from Muelheim a.d.R. a ticket at price level B could be valid to Bochum or Duesseldorf, but not the same ticket. You have to select a Zentral-Tarifgebeit which is 35 in the first case and 33 in the second case. So as I said you would need two B tickets.

But it seems that what I was told about needing a "fake" journey from the central zone to the place where you actually start the journey is not correct, since if you start in Bochum the website tells you to pay the B price to go to Muelheim - thus I assume validating a paper B ticket in Bochum would be fine too. But this B day ticket would only be valid between Muelheim and Bochum, not onwards to Duesseldorf.

I think we were actually discussing the VRS network when we talked about the need to allow some time after app purchase for a hypothetical journey from the ticket's origin.



What I don't understand is that for all the wasted person-hours of work put into designing this overly complex system with honeycombs and programming the logic behind the website and app, they could have made a much simpler system. For example, in Switzerland most of the networks just have an incremental price for every zone you pass through and most ticket machines let you buy tickets for most areas, so you can to some extent specify the zones you want.

What would be even simpler is to provide a further option to just choose the numbered zones you want, possibly from a map, rather than needing to specify an origin and destination and hope that the machine prints what you need on your ticket (or the app gives you what you want).

You may have convinced yourself that a certain ticket is valid for where you want to go, but you need to be able to convince a ticket inspector. I have never had a ticket inspection in NRW (except at the southern edge of Bonn, when I was using an RP ticket) and most of the time there is nobody to ask.
 

paddington

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There is this map:
https://www.vrr.de/en/tickets-fares/tariff-zones-regions-fare-categories/
What it does not show is at what station the boundaries meet. Therefore its even for me as a local difficult to know where to go or where to buy an extra ticket.

I'm not talking about the "tariff zones", that map is very easy to find and AFAIK some or most of the zones correspond to some sort of local authority boundaries (Gemeinden??)

What I want to find is a map of the honeycombs/Waben, to use the OP's example ticket from Muelheim to Bochum:

Tarifgebiete: 34 35 36
Waben: 342 350 356 368 360
 

Spoorslag '70

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Ticketing in the VRR is a bloody mess!

I don’t know as I like to know the answer too, equally what’s the best ticket to buy for local transport within the Dortmund city limits?
For trip inside one town it's always Preisstufe A (even if the town consits of two zones...), specificly A3 as the service level is said to be good enough for that (but Duisburg was also in the discussion for getting A3 status, so that does not say anything at all). There are single, "4-er Tickets"(for 4 journies) and various versions of n*24hrs tickets (with n in {1,2} i.e. there are 24 hours and 48 hours versions).

I thought I understood the VRR zone system and that a B ticket simply allowed travel to the adjacent zone. https://www.vrr.de/en/tickets-fares/tariff-zones-regions-fare-categories/

However I have now learnt that a B ticketholder can allow travel to 2 zones away eg. from Muelheim an der Ruhr, as far as Bochum or Duesseldorf.

So if you start in Bochum and want to go to Duesseldorf and back, you'd need a D day ticket if bought as paper ticket.

Could you instead buy a B day ticket on the app specifying a notional starting point of Muelheim an der Ruhr?
Looking at "the beast" (https://www.vrr.de/fileadmin/user_u...tarifinformationen/Preisstufenmatrix_2020.pdf) for single use tickets, Mühleim a/d Ruhr indeed has the nice property of being a "B" journey to both Bochum and Düsseldorf Mitte/Nord (but not Düsseldorf Süd). Your loophole would thus be perfectly possible on a day ticket (but not on a single!) starting at Mülheim a/d Ruhr, becaus you could have come from Mülheim first thing in the morning, went to Bochum and can then also go to Düsseldorf. The VRR system is very intensely filled with such things and poorly trained RPI, but your trick is perfectly valid!

The system might be designed in a way to discourage public transport usage, which is quite a pleasure as most cities in the Ruhr area are rather poor but rather pay for some idiotic prestige projects (various projects (not only) in Duisburg spring to mind) rather than investing into the provision of decent transport. I moved to Garching (near Munich) last year, were the bus service is much better, (20 minute intervals on a Sunday for a weeny "city" (it's only got that title through a joke on a TV debate) vs. 30-60 minute intervals in Duisburg).

Another oddity is that two A singles are cheaper than a B single and if you are prepared to levae the vehicle at the overlap between the two (there are some weird overlap rules, e.g. some areas of Düssledorf Nord to some areas of Duisburg Süd are A3), you can travel cheaper, but if someone finds out, you could be penalty fared.

It just an awful system, completed by them making up their own rules about products they don't have control over (according to the VRR, a "Schwerbehindertenausweis" (in some circumstances, disabled people get free public transport in whole Germany) is only valid to the last German station, whilst it's actually valid (as supported by national law) to the tariff border point - but the revenue training the staff get seems to be very much VRR based - not knowing what Emmerich(GR) is on a service passing there, does not really show any understanding of ticketing on international services).

But once again: Using a digital B 24 hours ticket in the way you suggest is fine and in my eyes not questionable.
 

superjohn

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Ruhrbahn explains it slightly differently at (in German but with illustrations):
https://www.ruhrbahn.de/essen/tickets/tarif-im-ueberblick.html
Where it explains a monthly B ticket is valid from one tariff zone to all those directly adjacent but a single ticket (Einzel ticket) is valid through three contiguous zones.

I suspect the tariff zones map is actually the same old honeycomb map but with the zones displayed more geographically accurately.

I agree it is hideously complex.
 

Aictos

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Ticketing in the VRR is a bloody mess!


For trip inside one town it's always Preisstufe A (even if the town consits of two zones...), specificly A3 as the service level is said to be good enough for that (but Duisburg was also in the discussion for getting A3 status, so that does not say anything at all). There are single, "4-er Tickets"(for 4 journies) and various versions of n*24hrs tickets (with n in {1,2} i.e. there are 24 hours and 48 hours versions).

Is there a 72 hour ticket for Dortmund which I believe is in the VRR? Ideally one that allows unlimited travel within the City limits if one exists?

Also speaking of Duisberg, what's it like connecting at the Hauptbahnhof between services?
 

Spoorslag '70

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Is there a 72 hour ticket for Dortmund which I believe is in the VRR? Ideally one that allows unlimited travel within the City limits if one exists?
only the 24 and 48 hours version I'm affraid
Also speaking of Duisberg, what's it like connecting at the Hauptbahnhof between services?
wet and windy - the roof mostly consists of selotape.
 

AnkleBoots

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https://www.ruhrbahn.de/essen/tickets/tarif-im-ueberblick.html
Where it explains a monthly B ticket is valid from one tariff zone to all those directly adjacent

Thanks for the link. It's frustrating it doesn't show a day ticket example.

but a single ticket (Einzel ticket) is valid through three contiguous zones.

The wording includes I.d.R. which I think means "as a general rule", so there are apparently some hidden exceptions!
 

AnkleBoots

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You may have convinced yourself that a certain ticket is valid for where you want to go, but you need to be able to convince a ticket inspector. I have never had a ticket inspection in NRW (except at the southern edge of Bonn, when I was using an RP ticket) and most of the time there is nobody to ask.
I have a low appetite for risk in terms of German ticket inspectors! I have experienced ticket checks on most trains in VRR, the buses have the driver doing a quick check; it's the just the trams and U-Bahn where a dodgy ticket might go unnoticed.
 

AnkleBoots

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I have done a bit more reading and what I understand is that from Muelheim a.d.R. a ticket at price level B could be valid to Bochum or Duesseldorf, but not the same ticket. You have to select a Zentral-Tarifgebeit which is 35 in the first case and 33 in the second case. So as I said you would need two B tickets.
For a B dayticket on the app it does seem to make you choose a via point (Zentral-Tarifgebeit). Whether doing so makes it a different product to a B paper ticket, or whether it is just helping you choose a valid route, I am not sure.

Because if you buy a paper ticket you definitely have no option of specifying a route or via point.
 

duesselmartin

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only the 24 and 48 hours version I'm affraid

wet and windy - the roof mostly consists of selotape.
Not pretty but it works. Most leaks have been patched. It is one of the last 1930s canopies and marked for demolition around 2023. If you like large steel structures looking a bit morbid, its the place to go.
 

paddington

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Based on Spoorslag '70's post, what I said about the fictitious journey applies - you would have to buy the app ticket an hour or so in advance, in order to pretend that you did start in Muelheim and went to Bochum first.


However it seems clear to me that a 24h B ticket is not intended to allow travel across 5 zones. Because then what is the point of Price Level C?


If you can use one 24h B ticket (price: €14.70) with origin Muelheim adR to travel to two zones away in all directions, then effectively the validity is as follows:

1.jpg

To replicate the same validity with 24h C tickets (price €25.30) you would need to get 3 of them.

And any 24h B tickets would have a greater validity than any of the 19 possible price C tickets.
 

Aictos

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only the 24 and 48 hours version I'm affraid

wet and windy - the roof mostly consists of selotape.

No worries, that's a pity tho as most places do a 72 hr one I think?

As to Duisberg, appreciate it as I've been to Stuttgart, Berlin, Hannover and Hamburg but not yet Duisberg for connections.
 

Spoorslag '70

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As to Duisberg, appreciate it as I've been to Stuttgart, Berlin, Hannover and Hamburg but not yet Duisberg for connections.
Duisburg is a pretty busy station with very good facilities nevertheless. The station roof fell into disrepair and the plaform are not that clean, but all in all it's a very interesting station.
Based on Spoorslag '70's post, what I said about the fictitious journey applies - you would have to buy the app ticket an hour or so in advance, in order to pretend that you did start in Muelheim and went to Bochum first.


However it seems clear to me that a 24h B ticket is not intended to allow travel across 5 zones. Because then what is the point of Price Level C?


If you can use one 24h B ticket (price: €14.70) with origin Muelheim adR to travel to two zones away in all directions, then effectively the validity is as follows:

View attachment 73543

To replicate the same validity with 24h C tickets (price €25.30) you would need to get 3 of them.

And any 24h B tickets would have a greater validity than any of the 19 possible price C tickets.
It's not quite as simple: A 24h B ticket starting in Mülheim would allow to make all journies in all directions that are a B fare from Mülheim, not plainly two zones... check the table I linked earlier.

The zones are: Bochum, Bottrop/Gladbeck, Dinslaken/Voerde, Düsseldor Mitte/Nord, Duiburg Mitte/Süd, Duisburg Nord, Essen Mitte/Nord, Essen Süd, Gelsenkirchen, Hattingen/Sprockhövel, Herne, Krefeld, Mettmann/Wülfrath, Moers, Oberhausen, Ratingen/Heiligenhaus, Rheinberg and Velbert.

Why Meerbusch is excluded? I don't know, quite likely because there is no direct connection between zones 33 and 42 transport wise and that would thus be a three zone journey... Except for that, the map is correct.
 

dutchflyer

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You use the wrong and thus confusing words.
When VRR started it was based on zones=waben, these were ca 4 km diameter and thus larger cities were composed of many zones. All zones=waben (hectagonal honeycomb shaped on some maps) in 1 city (exact boundaries) form 1 TARIFGEBIET, except in the 5 or 6 largest cities, Like D, DO, DU, E, W.
Later the formula was changed to these tarifgebiete, which was already a big step forward. For cheaper purely local short trips the zones/waben still exist though. Those in TG 34 are numberd 341, 342 etc.
VRR was enlarged with adding the old VGN (toward NL border/north west) and basically the other NRW verbünde: VRS(now overlaps AVV too) and now Westfalen are based on the same principles, where local area gemeinde=councils form 1 tarifgebiet. There is also an overlapping NRW-tarif based on this.
Later VRR also changed the exact formula for how far stufe B and C would bring you, as there were some very big and incomprehensible steps giving sudden very high pricehikes for just 1-2 stops further on.
There is a fairly widely available and very thick free booklet that shows ALL allowable B and C areas that can be used on the mostly used seasons. Better at your local Stadtwerke/rheinbahn as with , but sine 1/1/20 DB is not the contracted VRR agent anymore.
Additional visitor tip: for weekend ride at will travellers:
any Ticket2000 monthly is valid on whole VRR network after 19.00 and all day sat+sun+hols, and for even 2 people-holder and 1 other.
The cheapest cost slightly under 60 eur-buy locally only for exact calendermonth and is anon and thus can be passed on, buy online via rheinbahn start any day and home print with your name on it-show ID if asked. You then thus can get 5 consecutive weekends of unlim. travel-an excellent bargain. Its the after 9.00 variant-so you can use it all weekdays in that tarifgebiet only.
VRR has some jubilee this year and offers anyone FREE travel on his/her birthday-simply show ID as ´ticket´ As you may know, anywhere on the continent people have cred cd sized ID-cards as a matter of fact. And other as HU this is not limited to only EU! so no Brexit and not valid anymore fears.
Which brings me to an aside: someone might care to list all the travel freebees etc that UKers are loosing now that its post-brexit done. better make a new thread for that.
 

paddington

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Thanks for the information.

By the way, a hectagon has 100 sides. You mean a hexagon.

As you may know, anywhere on the continent people have cred cd sized ID-cards as a matter of fact.

Denmark has no ID card, and ID cards are optional in many continental European countries. One may be obliged to carry some form of ID, but this could be a passport.

And other as HU this is not limited to only EU!

Can you rephrase this please?
 

U-Bahnfreund

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vrr.de/psf is a helpful website for calculating ticket zones, and here https://www.vrr.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/service/downloads/tarifhandbuch/Anlage_3d_Wabenplan.pdf you can find a (very bad) Waben (honeycombe) map.

At all bus or tram stops there are these tables where you can see, which price level is valid until where [see an example attached]. Mostly the "honeycombes" are irrelevant today, the only exception is for two neighbouring "honeycombes" if there are in different "Tarifgebiete", but you can still travel with price level A.

Not that all this "Zentraltarifgebiete" thing is mostly relevant for monthly passes, I think it works slightly differently for tickets that have to be stamped (like single tickets or 24 hours ones)
 

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radamfi

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VRR has some jubilee this year and offers anyone FREE travel on his/her birthday-simply show ID as ´ticket´ As you may know, anywhere on the continent people have cred cd sized ID-cards as a matter of fact. And other as HU this is not limited to only EU! so no Brexit and not valid anymore fears.

Presumably a passport would also be accepted as ID for free travel on your birthday?
 

Fireless

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Presumably a passport would also be accepted as ID for free travel on your birthday?
The exact german wording (https://www.vrr.de/de/tickets-tarife/ticketuebersicht/freie-fahrt-am-geburtstag/) just mentions a "Lichtbildausweis mit Geburtsdatum" (photo identification with date of birth on it) including passports, driver's licences and suchlike.

The wording doesn't even require them to be "amtlich" (issued by authorities) which technically opens up options for far more obscure means of identification as long as they have your name, photo and date of birth on them (e.g. a belgish MOBIB card).
 
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