RMT dispute with NR over Automatic Route Setting (ARS), but what are details ?

rstmart · 9 Feb 2020

RMT have posted a circular on their website stating :

"A report from our National Operations Council representatives into ongoing concerns with the company’s plans to implement ARS has recently been considered by the National Executive Committee (NEC)"

https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/health...idents-and-signaller-workload-increase270120/

however there is no link to report or actual detail on its contents, does anyone have a copy or details of what their concerns are please ? Is this focused on one location / one particular ARS system or is it with ARS systems in general ? I know that a Nora Balfe did a research project for her Phd back in 2010 on 'Appropriate Automation of Rail Signalling Systems' focused on ARS

https://www.researchgate.net/public...rail_signalling_systems_a_human_factors_study

but am unclear as to whether RMT are referring back to this or is there something else? Thanks !

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Tom Quinne · 9 Feb 2020

ARS is being used as a 2nd signaller on multi manned panels, for example a busy workstation which should be a grade 9 or multi manned is having ARS installed and graded 7.

All well and good until the poo hits the fan, and ARS has to be isolated.

TheEdge · 9 Feb 2020

Tom Quinne said:
ARS is being used as a 2nd signaller on multi manned panels, for example a busy workstation which should be a grade 9 or multi manned is having ARS installed and graded 7.

All well and good until the poo hits the fan, and ARS has to be isolated.

Please tell me thats a joke and it's not whats happening? Please.

Malcolmffc · 9 Feb 2020

Tom Quinne said:
ARS is being used as a 2nd signaller on multi manned panels, for example a busy workstation which should be a grade 9 or multi manned is having ARS installed and graded 7.

All well and good until the poo hits the fan, and ARS has to be isolated.

As long as there is someone available to step in, what’s the problem?

jopsuk · 9 Feb 2020

Malcolmffc said:
As long as there is someone available to step in, what’s the problem?

Well, from the union point of view, a reduction in staff numbers and downgrading of jobs is always going to be a problem

BRblue · 9 Feb 2020

Malcolmffc said:
As long as there is someone available to step in, what’s the problem?

If you remove the 2nd man on a 2 man panel... who is left to step in? I think that's one of the points being made.

Tom Quinne · 9 Feb 2020

Malcolmffc said:
As long as there is someone available to step in, what’s the problem?

Multi manned panels are busy beasts, one signaller can’t watch it all - when things go wrong there’s a chain reaction across new panel, a ripple effect that ARS will only make worse hence why it’s isolated in this situation.

Modern workstations aren’t like the panel of old where two people could work side by side, it’s strictly set up for one person operation.

Multiple former panels combined into one workstation with ARS pretty much running the show with the signaller trying their best to keep up behind.

Picture your mate riding a bike, and you trying to run along behind - that’s what it’s like working a ARS equipped work station.

Tom Quinne · 9 Feb 2020

jopsuk said:
Well, from the union point of view, a reduction in staff numbers and downgrading of jobs is always going to be a problem

There is also the role ARS takes in the operation of the workstation, depending on where you are it switches from ARS lead, signaller monitor to Signaller fighting and trying to second guess ARS.

dctraindriver · 10 Feb 2020

Tom Quinne said:
There is also the role ARS takes in the operation of the workstation, depending on where you are it switches from ARS lead, signaller monitor to Signaller fighting and trying to second guess ARS.

I don’t think I’d like your job Tom. I’ll stick to driving and just sit and wait...

bengley · 10 Feb 2020

In my experience ARS is very poor and makes some crazy decisions which just cause delays.

(I should add, this is mainly the case when things aren't running 100% to plan)

edwin_m · 10 Feb 2020

Like all computer systems ARS is subject to "garbage in garbage out". Each site has to be configured with the specific operating rules about what it is and isn't allowed to do, which are usually more restrictive than what the signaler is allowed to do or what the interlocking permits. For example at York and Newcastle it was configured not to re-platform trains, as doing so at short notice would involve moving a lot of passengers and it was for the signaler to decide if this was worthwhile and to mobilise other staff if it became necessary. I was involved in these schemes at the time, though for ARS I only did the training simulators and plugged the new chips into the system, so some things may have changed in the 30 or so years since. I suspect also with difficulties Network Rail is having with timetabling, and the sort of oddities that pop up in written WTTs, that similar timetabling issues may affect the performance of ARS on occasion.

ComUtoR · 10 Feb 2020

One of my top 10 Signaller moments.

Sig : Driver we got a points failure ahead of you. What I'm gonna do is send you out via the fast.
Me : No problem Signaller.

Cue getting routed out onto the fast then right back onto the slow at the next signal.

Sig : Sorry about that Driver, the !£)*^^$%"$$£"! ARS took over !!

Eccles1983 · 10 Feb 2020

Sit and watch the world go by, thinking of weird and wonderful ways of spending the euromillions jackpot.

That's how I deal with ARS(e) in the signalling vortex that is central Manchester

Tom Quinne · 10 Feb 2020

Yes!

You agree a set of moves with the driver, only for ARSE to route the train in a spilt second instead - queue a confused (rightly so) driver on the blower asking what’s going on.

ARSE is great for simple panels, it high frequency services that shuttle back and forwards - like say St Albans Abbey branch or Southminster line etc.

But, there is no better method than a experienced signaller working a panel manually, knowing what’s happening and making pro active decisions.

EvoIV · 10 Feb 2020

Tom Quinne said:
But, there is no better method than a experienced signaller working a panel manually, knowing what’s happening and making pro active decisions.

This times one million (as a driver speaking)

edwin_m · 10 Feb 2020

ComUtoR said:
One of my top 10 Signaller moments.

Sig : Driver we got a points failure ahead of you. What I'm gonna do is send you out via the fast.
Me : No problem Signaller.

Cue getting routed out onto the fast then right back onto the slow at the next signal.

Sig : Sorry about that Driver, the !£)*^^$%"$$£"! ARS took over !!

Tom Quinne said:
Yes!

You agree a set of moves with the driver, only for ARSE to route the train in a spilt second instead - queue a confused (rightly so) driver on the blower asking what’s going on.

ARSE is great for simple panels, it high frequency services that shuttle back and forwards - like say St Albans Abbey branch or Southminster line etc.

But, there is no better method than a experienced signaller working a panel manually, knowing what’s happening and making pro active decisions.

The correct action there is to remove the train from ARS control as soon as you know it can't follow the normal route, and/or turn the relevant sub-area off.

Tom Quinne · 10 Feb 2020

Indeed, however what is best and what happens are different things when you’re a dozen things on the go.

I usually switch off ARSE on the central panel, but leave it to work the plain line to the fringes.

LowLevel · 10 Feb 2020

One of our classic regular ARS fails is having a passenger train bound for Nottingham sat at a signal, either East Mids Parkway down slow or Trent South. There is also the exit there from Ratcliffe power station. If an empty coal train appears at the exit signal ARS has a nasty habit of routing the passenger train up the High Level Goods towards Toton as if it is the freight train for no apparent reason.

rstmart · 11 Feb 2020

Apologies didn't quote correctly, Reply post was directed to ComUtoR

in response to In situations like this wouldn't you turn-off sub-area and manually route, then turn on ARS after. Am not a signaller so genuine question ! If you had to have ARS how could the way it behaves be improved to assist you rather than prove difficult to work with ?

High Dyke · 11 Feb 2020

LowLevel said:
One of our classic regular ARS fails is having a passenger train bound for Nottingham sat at a signal, either East Mids Parkway down slow or Trent South. There is also the exit there from Ratcliffe power station. If an empty coal train appears at the exit signal ARS has a nasty habit of routing the passenger train up the High Level Goods towards Toton as if it is the freight train for no apparent reason.

Funnily enough the Memsahib mentioned that happened to her train last week... She wasn't impressed.

Tom Quinne · 11 Feb 2020

rstmart said:
Apologies didn't quote correctly, Reply post was directed to ComUtoR

in response to In situations like this wouldn't you turn-off sub-area and manually route, then turn on ARS after. Am not a signaller so genuine question ! If you had to have ARS how could the way it behaves be improved to assist you rather than prove difficult to work with ?

I just don’t like it to be honest.

rstmart · 11 Feb 2020

LowLevel said:
One of our classic regular ARS fails is having a passenger train bound for Nottingham sat at a signal, either East Mids Parkway down slow or Trent South. There is also the exit there from Ratcliffe power station. If an empty coal train appears at the exit signal ARS has a nasty habit of routing the passenger train up the High Level Goods towards Toton as if it is the freight train for no apparent reason.

Isn't that more to do with insufficient information in the timetable if a regular move ? OR is something amiss with signalling controls i.e no TRTS ?

edwin_m · 11 Feb 2020

rstmart said:
Isn't that more to do with insufficient information in the timetable if a regular move ? OR is something amiss with signalling controls i.e no TRTS ?

It does sound as if something is wrong in the setup, or more probably two things. If at Trent South the ARS may be seeing the coal train and trying to set a route for it without recognizing the passenger train in the way. If at EM Parkway it's actively setting the route for the wrong train, or perhaps the wrong route for the right train.

LowLevel · 11 Feb 2020

rstmart said:
Isn't that more to do with insufficient information in the timetable if a regular move ? OR is something amiss with signalling controls i.e no TRTS ?

I'm afraid I can't comment - how ARS is designed and actually works is outside my experience and knowledge.

I seem to recall from the delay logs that it 'loses' the passenger train and attempts to set the route for the freight train through it if that makes sense, obviously the route can't clear in rear of the passenger train as it's not permissive but the route in advance does get set and clears and if the driver isn't paying attention problems arise.

I think it might be when the passenger runs up to Trent South to wait for the signal to cross on to the down Nottingham when the 1Dxx from London is a few minutes behind on the down fast.

Perhaps as the 2LXX is booked a 4 minute or so wait at East Mids Parkway it's made non ARS so the route doesn't automatically set across the front of the not yet arrived delayed 1DXX at Ratcliffe Jn or Trent South, then when it moves up one signal if bad luck occurs and the ARS enabled freight appears at the exit peg the ARS doesn't know the 2LXX is still there?

That's the only logic I can apply without experience.

edwin_m · 11 Feb 2020

LowLevel said:
I'm afraid I can't comment - how ARS is designed and actually works is outside my experience and knowledge.

I seem to recall from the delay logs that it 'loses' the passenger train and attempts to set the route for the freight train through it if that makes sense, obviously the route can't clear in rear of the passenger train as it's not permissive but the route in advance does get set and clears and if the driver isn't paying attention problems arise.

I think it might be when the passenger runs up to Trent South to wait for the signal to cross on to the down Nottingham when the 1Dxx from London is a few minutes behind on the down fast.

Perhaps as the 2LXX is booked a 4 minute or so wait at East Mids Parkway it's made non ARS so the route doesn't automatically set across the front of the not yet arrived delayed 1DXX at Ratcliffe Jn or Trent South, then when it moves up one signal if bad luck occurs and the ARS enabled freight appears at the exit peg the ARS doesn't know the 2LXX is still there?

That's the only logic I can apply without experience.

ARS can be configured not to set a route for a passenger train to depart until just before timetabled departure time (or TRTS operated, or both). It won't take the train out of ARS mode (assuming the modern systems from various manufacturers work the same as the original BR one) but it should take account of another train blocking the way, whether it's under ARS control or not, and not try to set a route for another train to "pass through" it. Seems to me the data defining the track circuits and train describer berths within the ARS doesn't match that in the signaling system.

Ashley Hill · 11 Feb 2020

I was led to believe by a ROC signaller that 2 pots of money exist for NR delay minutes. If a train is delayed by an ARS decision it comes out of one pot. If the signalman intervienes and subsequently causes a delay it comes out of the other pot resulting in the signaller having to explain his actions. Therefore some signallers just let ARS get on with it until compelled to step in. Is this info correct?

rstmart · 11 Feb 2020

edwin_m said:
ARS can be configured not to set a route for a passenger train to depart until just before timetabled departure time (or TRTS operated, or both). It won't take the train out of ARS mode (assuming the modern systems from various manufacturers work the same as the original BR one) but it should take account of another train blocking the way, whether it's under ARS control or not, and not try to set a route for another train to "pass through" it. Seems to me the data defining the track circuits and train describer berths within the ARS doesn't match that in the signaling system.

Ditto ! I would of expected that particular operating 'rule/ parameter' to have been captured in the Operational Requirement Specification (ORS) for ARS supplier to implement.

Tom Quinne · 11 Feb 2020

Ashley Hill said:
I was led to believe by a ROC signaller that 2 pots of money exist for NR delay minutes. If a train is delayed by an ARS decision it comes out of one pot. If the signalman intervienes and subsequently causes a delay it comes out of the other pot resulting in the signaller having to explain his actions. Therefore some signallers just let ARS get on with it until compelled to step in. Is this info correct?

I don’t know the full explanation, but broadly speaking yes.

OC is Signaller delay, OA is ARS and OB is signaller delay but with best intentions.

There’s a train of thought that you should let ARS cause delays to highlight it’s failings, but I’m not in the job to delay trains.

Nippy · 12 Feb 2020

OA is signaller, best endeavour,
OB is wrong regulation
OC is signaller
OD is control decision
OH is ARS

Where I am, our managers are good and would prefer we got an OA for doing the 'right thing' over a massive ARS/planning issue delay.

It doesn't matter which pot it comes out, be if ops, planning or maintenance, it's all Network Rail money at the end of the day going to the TOC/FOC

With regard to the OP, I thought it was more Traffic Management the unions weren't happy with........

Sunset route · 12 Feb 2020

Traffic management interfacing via ARS means non rules qualified Train running controllers can signal trains remotely via manipulation of the train running timings (the timetable) which excludes the rules trained signaller from the loop. Without having the ability to take into account all types of level crossings and other point to point communications the signallers have, track workers requiring safe access to the line or even communication with train drivers. It’s an interface that is apparently work in progress on top of ARS existing quirks

RMT dispute with NR over Automatic Route Setting (ARS), but what are details ?

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