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Train stuck just outside ManchesterPiccadilly-Mon 10/02

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jfollows

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Mod - split from this thread.

Shame Northern can't do the same.
2 hours 5 mins to get from Wigan - Manchester Piccadilly this morning and not one announcement was made until we reached Deansgate... some 1 hr 55 mins in.
2F23 left Crewe at 07:32 and arrived at Piccadilly at 12:03 today, apparently, much ranting on the Manchester Evening News. Not sure if it was weather-related though!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y57971/2020-02-10/detailed
"People trapped on broken down train for two-and-half-hours '150 metres' from Manchester Piccadilly after it loses power"
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ken-down-train-manchester-piccadilly-17720998
 
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Bletchleyite

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2F23 left Crewe at 07:32 and arrived at Piccadilly at 12:03 today, apparently, much ranting on the Manchester Evening News. Not sure if it was weather-related though!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y57971/2020-02-10/detailed
"People trapped on broken down train for two-and-half-hours '150 metres' from Manchester Piccadilly after it loses power"
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ken-down-train-manchester-piccadilly-17720998

Again? When will they learn?
 

Bletchleyite

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When will who learn what?

When will the railways learn that leaving people in trains for that length of time, particularly in poor conditions i.e. full and standing like this one and potentially no water nor toilet facilities, is unacceptable, and more needs to be done to speed evacuation of trains in such situations?
 

CHAPS2034

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When will the railways learn that leaving people in trains for that length of time, particularly in poor conditions i.e. full and standing like this one and potentially no water nor toilet facilities, is unacceptable, and more needs to be done to speed evacuation of trains in such situations?

We don't know whether there were any other options. But anyway, this is veering well off the thread topic which is the disruption caused by storm Ciara
 

Paul_10

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We don't know whether there were any other options. But anyway, this is veering well off the thread topic which is the disruption caused by storm Ciara


Your the one who asked the question!! :D

Bletchleyite of course has a point though, looks like(surpringsly) no one detained themselves and thankfully this seems to be the only incident of a stranded train due to the weather.
 

CHAPS2034

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Your the one who asked the question!! :D

Yes I am as I didn't know what he was talking about as it wasn't clear; he didn't put any quotes from the article or explained what he was referring to. It transpires the answer was nothing to do with the weather, hence my reply
 

miami

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Having a train broken down and being unable to get people 300m along the track always turns out looking bad for the railway. What would they do if there were a fire on the train?
 

Mathew S

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2F23 left Crewe at 07:32 and arrived at Piccadilly at 12:03 today, apparently, much ranting on the Manchester Evening News. Not sure if it was weather-related though!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y57971/2020-02-10/detailed
"People trapped on broken down train for two-and-half-hours '150 metres' from Manchester Piccadilly after it loses power"
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ken-down-train-manchester-piccadilly-17720998
Yikes, that's even worse than I thought.
Your the one who asked the question!! :D

Bletchleyite of course has a point though, looks like(surpringsly) no one detained themselves and thankfully this seems to be the only incident of a stranded train due to the weather.
I'll be honest, had the train I was on been in a more accessible location, I would have self-evacuated. The incident was managed absolutely appallingly by all involved, from my point of view as a passenger.
 

CHAPS2034

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I thought I would create a new thread here for any discussion in this subject which has blown the Ciara storm thread off topic...

Here's what we know so far

2F23 left Crewe at 07:32 and arrived at Piccadilly at 12:03 today, apparently, much ranting on the Manchester Evening News. Not sure if it was weather-related though!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y57971/2020-02-10/detailed
"People trapped on broken down train for two-and-half-hours '150 metres' from Manchester Piccadilly after it loses power"
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ken-down-train-manchester-piccadilly-17720998


People were trapped on a broken down train for two-and-a-half hours.

The train came to a stop '150m away from' Manchester Piccadilly at around 9am. It led to delays to other services.
It left Crewe at 7.13am this morning (Monday), bound for Liverpool.

One person reportedly fainted before the service stopped. Many were forced to stand because there were too many passengers for the number of seats.

According to those on the train, it lost power before coming to a stop.

Engineers were sent to try and fix the problem.

At around 11.30am, passengers were allowed off the train after another pulled up next to it.

The broken down train caused delays to other services running from Manchester Piccadilly.

While it was stuck, Andrew Tomlinson, who hopped on at Wilmslow at 8.42am, said: "It is stuck 150m away from Piccadilly. "I have been [on the train] for nearly three-and-a-half hours. "There are plenty of people standing. I heard somebody collapsed. "They have said it has lost power.
"I am definitely late for work. My work place is understanding, I feel for some people."
1_AR_100220_Northern-2JPG.jpg

Passengers were allowed off the train at around 11.30am (Image: @tomo_mcfc)
Tyla Daniels, who got on the train at Gatley, said: "Someone fainted, then our train ran out of power. "We're literally just in line with the Etihad Stadium, so not far at all from Piccadilly. "The extra train came, which was meant to save us and push us back into the station, but they had troubles with that so now they are trying something else."

A statement on the National Rail website read: "A broken down train near Manchester Piccadilly is causing disruption to journeys through the station.

"Services may be cancelled, delayed or diverted. "We anticipate disruption will continue until 2pm."

A spokesman for Northern said: “Just before 9am this morning, the 7.13am Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street service reported a loss of power outside Manchester. "We anticipate disruption will continue until 2pm."

A spokesman for Northern said: “Just before 9am this morning, the 7.13am Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street service reported a loss of power outside Manchester.

We are sincerely sorry for those customer impacted. "We had a team of people on-board and in conjunction with Network Rail, we were able to remove the customers off the stranded train late morning and taken to Manchester Piccadilly.

“As a result of this power failure, the continued impact of Storm Ciara and an incident involving emergency services this morning, there will be significant delays and cancellations in the area for much of today.”

Bletchleyite said

When will the railways learn that leaving people in trains for that length of time, particularly in poor conditions i.e. full and standing like this one and potentially no water nor toilet facilities, is unacceptable, and more needs to be done to speed evacuation of trains in such situations?

Paul 10 said
Bletchleyite of course has a point though, looks like(surpringsly) no one detained themselves and thankfully this seems to be the only incident of a stranded train due to the weather.

Miami said
Having a train broken down and being unable to get people 300m along the track always turns out looking bad for the railway. What would they do if there were a fire on the train?

Bletchleyite replied
Stop the job and get everyone off on to the track, presumably.

Matthew S said
I'll be honest, had the train I was on been in a more accessible location, I would have self-evacuated. The incident was managed absolutely appallingly by all involved, from my point of view as a passenger.

Now continue....
 
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185

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.....edit... Now worked out its a 319, mobile app version of evening news only shows generic pic.
 

Djgr

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I thought I would create a new thread here for any discussion in this subject which has blown the Ciara storm thread off topic...

Here's what we know so far

2F23 left Crewe at 07:32 and arrived at Piccadilly at 12:03 today, apparently, much ranting on the Manchester Evening News. Not sure if it was weather-related though!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y57971/2020-02-10/detailed
"People trapped on broken down train for two-and-half-hours '150 metres' from Manchester Piccadilly after it loses power"
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ken-down-train-manchester-piccadilly-17720998




Bletchleyite said



Paul 10 said


Miami said


Bletchleyite replied


Matthew S said


Now continue....

Is it a rant in the MEN? Looks fairly factual to me.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The same story is in the Liverpool Echo as well, under the heading "Liverpool commuters stuck for hours".
Well, I suppose the train was heading for Liverpool...
 

deltic

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How long would it take to detrain a full and standing class 319 assuming all passengers could physically disembark and walk to the platform? Given the risk averse nature of the railways presumably all services at the station would be stopped as this took place. How do you deal with those who cant disembark - at least they will have more space and a seat after everyone else has got off.
 

Bletchleyite

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How long would it take to detrain a full and standing class 319 assuming all passengers could physically disembark and walk to the platform? Given the risk averse nature of the railways presumably all services at the station would be stopped as this took place. How do you deal with those who cant disembark - at least they will have more space and a seat after everyone else has got off.

Pull a DMU up alongside and either bridge the two to evacuate or down and up? There is certain to be a DMU in Picc to do this.
 

bb21

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Pull a DMU up alongside and either bridge the two to evacuate or down and up? There is certain to be a DMU in Picc to do this.
With what to bridge the gap?

While I agree it is a sensible way forward on future rolling stock, you cannot just magic out a piece of whatever to bridge the gap arbitrarily due to the high risk of passengers falling, it will have to be at least a partial line block at the throat of Piccadilly and full evacuation. It will be a minimum 60-minute plus job at one of the busiest locations on the network and the cumulative disruption on other services will be enormous, with substantial further risks to passenger safety on those other services. It should absolutely be the last option.

But having people stranded for hours that close to a station reflects extremely poorly on the industry. The best I can see at the moment is similar to the other option you suggested, changing procedures allowing only roads one side of the dead unit to be blocked, effectively using the train as a barrier against movements on the other side, drive a rescue unit alongside (or use the rescue train as a barrier on the outside if not enough clearance), evacuate and reboard the rescue unit, and safely drive away once all passengers onboard. That way at least the impact would be minimised without the need to shut station throat but AIUI that would require some significant rule changes but not unachievable if the will were there.
 

kc_

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If the failed unit and the rescue unit are both gangwayed stock, in the event that the units won't/can't couple, can the gangway still be used as a route to move passengers off the failed unit?
 

bb21

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Aren't there actually "gap bridges" for exactly that purpose, which are some variation on the wheelchair ramp but with sides? I'm sure I heard of such a thing being used before.

Edit: I wasn't wrong:
https://www.workingatheightltd.com/...in_access/bespoke_train_evacuation_bridge.php
But was one available on the dead/rescue unit? You may be able to retrospectively fit out the whole fleet across the country, probably at a significantly inflated expense and there may not be space onboard after all. It will still take a significant amount of time due to the requirement to change the design to fit around all the possible combinations of fleets and how many can each fleet type carry/need to carry? Do you just allow transfers between units of the same classes? How long do they need to be considering "6 foot" and "10 foot" can vary greatly in distance? etc.

In any case that example still carried a significant risk of falling through the gap at height so "disembark and reboard" remains my preference, which is obviously not possible with wheelchairs hence the makeshift bridge.
 

bb21

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If the failed unit and the rescue unit are both gangwayed stock, in the event that the units won't/can't couple, can the gangway still be used as a route to move passengers off the failed unit?
I remotely recall if they could be mechanically coupled, then yes, if not then no for obvious reasons (gaps, steps, etc), but I am open to correction on this one.
 

markymark2000

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With what to bridge the gap?

While I agree it is a sensible way forward on future rolling stock, you cannot just magic out a piece of whatever to bridge the gap arbitrarily due to the high risk of passengers falling, it will have to be at least a partial line block at the throat of Piccadilly and full evacuation. It will be a minimum 60-minute plus job at one of the busiest locations on the network and the cumulative disruption on other services will be enormous, with substantial further risks to passenger safety on those other services. It should absolutely be the last option.

But having people stranded for hours that close to a station reflects extremely poorly on the industry. The best I can see at the moment is similar to the other option you suggested, changing procedures allowing only roads one side of the dead unit to be blocked, effectively using the train as a barrier against movements on the other side, drive a rescue unit alongside (or use the rescue train as a barrier on the outside if not enough clearance), evacuate and reboard the rescue unit, and safely drive away once all passengers onboard. That way at least the impact would be minimised without the need to shut station throat but AIUI that would require some significant rule changes but not unachievable if the will were there.
Picc station has wheelchair ramps. While not perfect, it's better than nothing isn't it?
 

JN114

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It’s not practical, or particularly safe to do a controlled train to ballast evacuation at the location - you’d potentially strand thousands to “rescue” hundreds who don’t necessarily need rescuing.
The unit in question didn’t have end gangways, so a longitudinal evacuation to a different unit isn’t possible.
Being in the throat of Piccadilly station, it’s plausible that it wasn’t even possible to draw a unit alongside and bridge between two doorways, which would rule out a longitudinal evacuation.
The only option remaining is wait on board for the fault to be fixed - which is what I understand happened? Inconvenient yes, but only as unsafe as the passengers onboard want it to be.

The railway industry tends to be looking for the least-worst option, rather than the best.
 

edwin_m

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Can anyone confirm how this incident was eventually resolved? MEN link above would appear to show evacuation to an adjacent train via wheelchair ramp with staff standing on the ballast both sides, presumably to compensate for lack of handrails. But someone above suggested it might be a stock picture.
 

Bletchleyite

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The only option remaining is wait on board for the fault to be fixed - which is what I understand happened? Inconvenient yes, but only as unsafe as the passengers onboard want it to be.

You are making the error of assuming that the only way passengers can come to harm is by pulling the egress, and on a full-and-standing train with no water or functioning toilets this is totally false.

I would suggest that nobody was happy to stand for multiple hours. Not a single one.

3/10. Must do better.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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From what I can see from RTT timings, the train was south of Ardwick Jn, on the Airport lines (Down Slow), at the time of failure.
That's a lot more than "150 metres" from the Piccadilly platforms, more like half a mile.
It would probably be somewhere near the exit from Longsight depot at Longsight North Jn and a long way from a safe location.
 

Bantamzen

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From what I can see from RTT timings, the train was south of Ardwick Jn, on the Airport lines (Down Slow), at the time of failure.
That's a lot more than "150 metres" from the Piccadilly platforms, more like half a mile.
It would probably be somewhere near the exit from Longsight depot at Longsight North Jn and a long way from a safe location.

I was thinking the same myself. This is the danger in reporting, and making assumptions from Twitter posts alone. As you say it may well have been much further back down the line, at a distance that might not have been suitable for a trackside evacuation, especially given not only that it is a busy section that would need clearing, bit there was also still some pretty strong winds and heavy rain. Far from the most ideal circumstances given that there might have been people with limited mobility, and of course there would have been plenty of people with unsuitable footwear for walking any kind of distance on the ballast. As for an evacuation to another unit, as implied by the article, even that would have been difficult to put together in a short time.

I have at least once been on a unit that was stranded just east of Thackley tunnel on the Aire line after a sad collision. In the end we were stuck for over three hours in worsening weather late into the evening. It might well have been possible to evac along the access road along the south side of the trackbed towards Apperley Bridge to the A658, but the decision was made to keep us on the train until a new driver could be brought to site (via the very same access road). So with a view to this latest incident, it is not without precedent and until we understand exactly the circumstances, and the decisions made I'd say its a little too early to make a final judgement.
 
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