So you *used to* travel? So you don't see the current levels of crowding, which was the point being made.
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Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)
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So you *used to* travel? So you don't see the current levels of crowding, which was the point being made.
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Going via Manchester currently takes 3 to 3:15 with a 25 minute journey time saving that's likely to put it at 2:45 to 3.
That would at least be on a par with most of the services down to Kings Cross with it being down to when you're wanting to arrive as to which service would be better to use.
Peter Kelford
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But the partial rebuild of three new railways would lead to operational flexibility and resilience, as well as benefits to small and medium sized settlements along the way. A sobering thought is that the new Eurostar Class 374s are only able to operate (in the UK at least) on HS1, so should HS1 be closed for work, should there be operational issues such as a breakdown or suchlike, then all or most trains will be definitively cancelled, not just delayed. For instance, when SNCF suffered a similar issue on the LN1 near Villeneuve-Saint-Georges, the other, non-affected, trains were able to travel via a section of classic line before rejoining the HS network.
I tend to agree, but how about this: https://www.20minutes.fr/societe/26...elles-voies-projet-gare-saint-charles-devoile as an idea
Unfortunately, the article is only available in French, but it discusses the new underground station that Marseille is getting.
You mean like how a Pendolino can't run on the Midland Main Line?
Whilst the recording of the existing lines would allow some operational flexibility, surely building a fourth line creates yet more flexibility than a rebuild, including the ability to close any of the four and still run a basic service to the majority of places. Currently that's hard to do if you close any of the three, except for a few key points.
However HS2 is being designed so that any one track could be closed whilst running still happened on the other. Likewise for most of its length there's due to be a maintained route alongside, allowing closures to be kept short.
Bletchleyite
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What do you propose as an alternative way to solve the problem of the south WCML?
The Planner
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Not sure it will be unless they are building all the grade seperation in preperation for 2b at the north end of Crewe as part of 2a.
I go up and down the WCML at least once a week mostly twice a week for work and I can't wait for it to arrive and bring a step change in capacity, speed and comfort.
krus_aragon
Established Member
I think that one may be on the "tenuous list" : there's no plan for bi-mode classic compatibles or electrification of the NW Coast, so there won't be any through services. Frequency improvements could be done immediately by extending Chester terminators down the coast, so that's not a HS2 gain. Our benefits list is a quicker London journey after changing at Crewe, or direct services to a few more WCML south stations*, at the expense of a slower drect journey into London.
My ideal resolution would be electrification to Holyhead, to allow direct HS2 services, but that's not going to be on the horizon any time soon.
*We already have a direct service to Milton Keynes, with occasional calls at Nuneaton.
I use the WCML frequently for work and feel the same as do many colleagues. This is going to be a step change for UK transport the like of which we’ve never seen.
I suspect it will be built as the economic case was the best bit due to being relatively cheap, relieving three major intercity corridors (MML, ECML and XCML) and having really dramatic journey time reductions on XC journeys.
Add in that both NPR and Midlands Connect Rail want to use the spare capacity and that just improves the case beyond HS2's.
But certainly this narrative that it is a bit pointless and the case isn't good will need to be overcome.
Or the Euston-North Wales trains will benefit from having Euston-Crewe passengers attracted onto HS2 for a quicker journey too.
So dropping nearly an hour off a trip to London, more options into Birmingham, and emptier trains out of Euston.
Good point. Currently it's 2h50 to 3h05 from Huddersfield to London
Phase 1 will mean 80 minutes Pic-Lon, add 40 minutes from Hud-Pic, so 2h plus interchange, meaning an end to end of about 2h10-2h25, saving 40 minutes
Aictos
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And when NPR finally gets a move on then you save more time between Manchester and Leeds.
Once Phase 2B into Picadilly goes it will make Huddersfield-London via Piccadilly under 2 hours - faster than Leeds-London on the ECML, and Huddersfield-Birmingham 1h40.
Phase 2B into Leeds will make Huddersfield-London via Leeds 1h44, and Hud-Brum 1h20
NPR is massively needed for capacity purposes and should be looking at getting the notice to proceed in this parliament, at least for the Liverpool-HS2-Leeds parts.
Aictos
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Thank you, couldn’t comment on exact timings as don’t know them but appreciate you going into more detail.
It does prove my point that services be improved to be faster in time.
matacaster
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Sorry, meant NPR rather than HS2 via Bradford.
krus_aragon
Established Member
Okay, more space available on Euston-North Wales trains, I'll grant you that, but remember that a lot of our existing services are currently operated by a single Voyager.
@miami I thought the Euston-Crewe travel time was going to drop down to one hour, not be reduced by an hour. (The summary tables on Wikipedia agree with this, assuming they're still correct.) Assuming that Crewe keeps its minimum interchange time on 10 minutes, that trims the 35 minute saving down to 20~25 minutes. Still a time saving (if you choose to change trains), but less than the other places listed.
@Ianno87 Will moving passengers onto HS2 mean Euston-North Wales trains are quicker? I thought the received wisdom is that there'd be more semi-fast services on the WCML south (for capacity and regional connectivity), and no more non-stop flyers.
Trains along Crewe-Stafford-Birmingham again would be nice, but the lack of an indicative (or speculative) timetable for classic WCML services means that the material benefits in North Wales are still nebulous.
All the NIMBY's moaning that they should cancel HS2 and double the capacity of the East Coast and West Coast main lines are missing the point.
HS2 will increase capacity on these lines by taking some of the existing traffic away.
Also if you did cancel HS2 and build more conventional lines, you would likely have to compulsorily purchase properties and dig up some countryside.
HS2 will increase capacity on these lines by taking some of the existing traffic away.
Also if you did cancel HS2 and build more conventional lines, you would likely have to compulsorily purchase properties and dig up some countryside.
N Wales simply doesn't generate the passenger volume to justify diverting resource from the northern powerhouse cities at this stage, the economic benefits of HS into Holyhead would struggle against future expansion to the northeast for example.
Plus you would have many years of engineering works, weekend closures and bus replacement services while the ECML, MML and WCML were upgraded. Once HS2 is open it will then be easier to upgrade these lines as the high speed line will provide a backup route.
Crewe to OOC will be 48 minutes.
Next Rhyl to Euston train is 1300, change at Chester and Crewe (1418), arriving into Euston at 1606
At 1430 from Crewe would be in OOC at 1510, 54 minutes earlier.
I consider OOC and Euston to be equidistant from Euston.
OOC will be 6 minutes from Bond Street, 20 minutes from Canary Wharf, 15 minutes from Heathrow
Next Rhyl to Euston train is 1300, change at Chester and Crewe (1418), arriving into Euston at 1606
At 1430 from Crewe would be in OOC at 1510, 54 minutes earlier.
I consider OOC and Euston to be equidistant from Euston.
OOC will be 6 minutes from Bond Street, 20 minutes from Canary Wharf, 15 minutes from Heathrow
*George Stephephenson enters thread shaking a fist*
Have to say, I agree that initially starting at OOC wouldn't be a disaster, assuming they manage to drag Crossrail over the line within the next 10 years. Euston isn't going to be many people's final destination/origin so I don't think it should make that much difference, and depending whereabouts in London people are based OOC could well be easier.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You keep saying this, but don't forget to add on (a) time to change, and (b) when connecting onto HS2 time to kill because ticketing will almost certainly be fully train specific and compulsory reservation.
Whereas there are many places from which you can walk to Euston and use a walk-up ticket so no waiting around.
HSTEd
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Why would be fully train specific and compulsory reservation?
Why on earth would they do that when they have as many seats as they can fill at their disposal?
Very few places to walk to from Euston for the majority of people. City is too far, docklands is too far, westminster, picadilly circus and the west end all out, anything on the south back.
Id argue that parts of the West end are definitely in walking range.
ABB125
Established Member
The Oakervee Review has been published:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...tachment_data/file/864842/oakervee-review.pdf
https://assets.publishing.service.g...tachment_data/file/864842/oakervee-review.pdf
And Bloomsbury (British Museum) is definitely walking range.
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