• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

fulmar

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2016
Messages
82
^ No it doesn't. Staff do not input "the route" to the system.

Issues such as not knowing which side platforms are on, or incorrectly announcing short platforms, are due to the relatively simple way the system works and/or programming. These are not things that train crew have any control over.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

a_c_skinner

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
1,585
So it just plain doesn't work? Is it capable of being made to work?
 
Last edited:

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
So why did the 185s hit the ground running on reliability as soon as they entered service?
Did they? I'm not from the area they operate in so I couldn't give any personal observations but that is very unusual, the other Desiro UK units certainly weren't perfect in their first few months of introduction.
 

matacaster

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2013
Messages
1,602
So why did the 185s hit the ground running on reliability as soon as they entered service?

Good design, well executed, heavy but consequent excellent ride, so electronics not shaken about as much?

Only real issue was there weren't enough of them and they weren't long enough.
 

Fisherman80

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2018
Messages
217
Are they going to be making any modifications to the bogies? I've done Carnforth to Barrow twice on a 195 and thought the ride was a little rough. Anyway,I did a short Lancaster to Preston run last night aboard 195124 to see what they are like at 100mph. Must say I was absolutely shocked at the poor quality of the ride.
I just hope in time the manufacturers do make some modifications as the ride quality is absolutely atrocious.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,266
Location
Greater Manchester
So it just plain doesn't work? Is it capable of being made to work?
Modifying complex software is exceedingly difficult, time-consuming and hence costly. Especially if the original software is poorly structured/documented and/or the original developers have moved on to other projects. In the latter case someone new (probably less experienced) has to come in and get to grips with the system, before they can develop the new version (don't know if this applies to CAF).

There is the ever present risk of regression errors, where a change to one software function inadvertently breaks some completely different, and maybe more important, functionality. To mitigate the risk a rigorous change control process should be followed, starting with the top level requirements and flowing down through the software structure, rather than just jumping in and patching the code. Then extensive and time consuming regression testing is required, to demonstrate that none of the other functions of the system are adversely affected by the change.

Even with best practice, errors can slip through. Look how often Windows updates introduce new bugs, despite all the resources Microsoft has at its disposal. And look how long the Boeing 737 Max has already been grounded. The old adage "more haste less speed" was never more true than in software updates. Non-engineers often say "why is it taking so long? It's 'only' software." But hardware modifications are often quicker to develop and roll out, because the physical interactions of one widget with others are much easier to analyse and predict than those between software modules.

In the case of the 195/331 TMS and PIS, I expect CAF will be trying to minimise the number of software updates by grouping together collections of bug fixes into each new software version. Then this will have a limited initial release on a few units, for in service validation, before rollout across the fleet. A slow process!
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
What do we know? The ASDO system can be entirely programmed when the direction of travel is guaranteed. You'll know full well from your route knowledge that a service from the Manchester direction can depart from either platform at Halifax, as such it will always be a selectable station. Equally Hebden Bridge has a turnback facility which means the station can never be listed as having guaranteed departure platforms and so requires the guard to select them.
At Halifax in the Up there can only be one platform used for a journey coming from Bradford. Quite a few stations that are bi-di such as Piccadilly 13/14 where 99% of the time one platform is used but others are possible but rare have a 'default' platform. Halifax should be included in that list, and to be honest I thought it was but the last few times I've been that way Asdo has had to be overridden by the guard.

The information is within the Asdo database. Once it is set up when the unit is brought to life it shouldn't need any input whatsoever unless it suffers a fault. Drivers certainly do not input into it during a journey.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,634
Location
Yorkshire
I do wonder what default it's using when some screens give one platform and others the other as the side the doors will open.
 

Grumpy Git

On Moderation
Joined
13 Oct 2019
Messages
2,137
Location
Liverpool
Just boarded the 1H95 at Liverpool South Parkway for Manchester Airport.

Made up of a double 195.

Waited for an age for the doors to unlock, then another shorter delay for the button to go green.

By the time the doors opened, a Merseyrail train would have been halfway to the next station!
 
Last edited:

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
I don't know South Parkway, but having just checked it doesn't seem to be bidirectional so Asdo should work without having to be 'overridden' as a matter of course.

If Asdo perhaps wasn't working the guard would have to override it at every station. This is done using the SDO switch which has to be held for five seconds in each direction in which the guard wants doors to be released (e.g. fore and aft of their position at the door control panel) whilst simultaneously pressing the 'door release' buttons. That's a lot of time wasted at each station.
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
That's 195021 which derailed on Edge Hill depot a couple of weeks ago and suffered some damage.
 

Attachments

  • IMG-20200130-WA0003.jpg
    IMG-20200130-WA0003.jpg
    313.4 KB · Views: 113

LeylandLen

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2013
Messages
779
Location
Leyland Lancs
For those that dont know, going south on M6 at Keele is away from Edge Hill and Liverpool . From memory, dont CAF have a facility in Newport ,South Wales ? Assume thats the destination ?
BTW first 'real' snow of winter here 'up north (as on pic) so be interesting to see how 195s 331s deal with the white stuff and ice.
 

ChrisC

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2018
Messages
1,608
Location
Nottinghamshire
Are they going to be making any modifications to the bogies? I've done Carnforth to Barrow twice on a 195 and thought the ride was a little rough. Anyway,I did a short Lancaster to Preston run last night aboard 195124 to see what they are like at 100mph. Must say I was absolutely shocked at the poor quality of the ride.
I just hope in time the manufacturers do make some modifications as the ride quality is absolutely atrocious.

I had my first ride on a 195 today from Worksop to Leeds. First impressions on boarding was a nice modern looking train. However, once it got moving I was soon aware of the roughness of the ride. It’s not a particularly fast route between Worksop and Sheffield or Sheffield to Leeds via Barnsley, but I could feel every bump in the track. Also 90 minutes on those seats was not good for my back. They ought to be a nice train to ride in but I’m actually hoping for a 158 for my return journey on Saturday.
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
For those that dont know, going south on M6 at Keele is away from Edge Hill and Liverpool . From memory, dont CAF have a facility in Newport ,South Wales ? Assume thats the destination ?
BTW first 'real' snow of winter here 'up north (as on pic) so be interesting to see how 195s 331s deal with the white stuff and ice.
Yes it was off to Newport for repair.

195s and 331s have a 'snow brake' setting which negates running at reduced speed in falling snow or when snow is being disturbed by the passage of trains, and also negates the need for additional running brake tests, so they should at least be able to run to time if everything else functions ok. Looking how spaghetti-like some of the air system pipework is under the solebar I have my reservations...
 

notlob.divad

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,609
Modifying complex software is exceedingly difficult, time-consuming and hence costly. Especially if the original software is poorly structured/documented and/or the original developers have moved on to other projects. In the latter case someone new (probably less experienced) has to come in and get to grips with the system, before they can develop the new version (don't know if this applies to CAF).

There is the ever present risk of regression errors, where a change to one software function inadvertently breaks some completely different, and maybe more important, functionality. To mitigate the risk a rigorous change control process should be followed, starting with the top level requirements and flowing down through the software structure, rather than just jumping in and patching the code. Then extensive and time consuming regression testing is required, to demonstrate that none of the other functions of the system are adversely affected by the change.

Even with best practice, errors can slip through. Look how often Windows updates introduce new bugs, despite all the resources Microsoft has at its disposal. And look how long the Boeing 737 Max has already been grounded. The old adage "more haste less speed" was never more true than in software updates. Non-engineers often say "why is it taking so long? It's 'only' software." But hardware modifications are often quicker to develop and roll out, because the physical interactions of one widget with others are much easier to analyse and predict than those between software modules.

In the case of the 195/331 TMS and PIS, I expect CAF will be trying to minimise the number of software updates by grouping together collections of bug fixes into each new software version. Then this will have a limited initial release on a few units, for in service validation, before rollout across the fleet. A slow process!

This, this, a thousand times this.

As a software engineer (Not trains) it always amazes me how people think:
'Software' is the cheap solution to all of lifes problems.
It just gets loaded and will work straight away.
It is easy to modify.
(and the biggest one) A little bit of cheap software can replace expensive hardware.

By all accounts, the ASDO and PIS systems on the CAF units sound like they have taken all of those assumptions and just run with them.

As for the microsoft comparrison: it appears that their latest 'patch' has just broken Windows 10 so.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,735
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
This, this, a thousand times this.

As a software engineer (Not trains) it always amazes me how people think:
'Software' is the cheap solution to all of lifes problems.
It just gets loaded and will work straight away.
It is easy to modify.
(and the biggest one) A little bit of cheap software can replace expensive hardware.

By all accounts, the ASDO and PIS systems on the CAF units sound like they have taken all of those assumptions and just run with them.

As for the microsoft comparrison: it appears that their latest 'patch' has just broken Windows 10 so.

However, having complex software controlling and/or monitoring systems constantly offers major benefits. Take modern aircraft for example, once upon a time aircraft mechanics would only become aware of a potential issue when either they spotted something during scheduled maintenance, or when a plane fell out of the sky. Now every system can not only monitor every key system & feed it back to the pilots, it can also remotely feed this live data to the mechanics to make them aware too. The result, fewer planes falling out of the skies. Of course there are exceptions, the 737-Max being a tragic one, but by & large air travel is far safer as a result of that software.

So the same can be applied to trains, cars or any systems with parts that may one day fail. Yes it makes implementation more complex, and yes increases the risk of early adoption failures, but the long term benefit will far outweigh these.
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
Or a proper maintenance and inspection regime could be implemented that doesn't de-skill the engineering and operations staff over time by over-relying on unnecessary software. If say an air compressor fails there could be a multitude of causes, and software could tell you that it has failed, but then so can the staff on the ground by the effects that that compressor failing has on the operation of a train.
If you think that the railway will suddenly adopt a conscientious preventative maintenance policy because say a compressor warns that it is on its last legs then that is naïve. Despite all the bluster in industry literature that engineering depots are cutting edge and high tech, whether a component is 'on its last legs' or not, if it is available for service it gets sent out in service.

Plus the number and seriousness of false positives reported by the software on the CAF units is something to behold and undermines the whole premise.
 

notlob.divad

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,609
However, having complex software controlling and/or monitoring systems constantly offers major benefits. Take modern aircraft for example, once upon a time aircraft mechanics would only become aware of a potential issue when either they spotted something during scheduled maintenance, or when a plane fell out of the sky. Now every system can not only monitor every key system & feed it back to the pilots, it can also remotely feed this live data to the mechanics to make them aware too. The result, fewer planes falling out of the skies. Of course there are exceptions, the 737-Max being a tragic one, but by & large air travel is far safer as a result of that software.

So the same can be applied to trains, cars or any systems with parts that may one day fail. Yes it makes implementation more complex, and yes increases the risk of early adoption failures, but the long term benefit will far outweigh these.

Your talking about monitoring systems, which is are very very different beasts from Multi-input multi-output control systems, particularly when you add human factors in the loop. I never said there are not huge benefits to doing things in software. The problems are when people expect to achieve those benefits for nothing, whilst cutting corners / making savings in other places, and also expecting limitless functionality.

For me, it appears from the outside, that the ASDO and PIS systems a decision has been made to use a theoretically cheaper GPS based system, rather than the system that required the expensive Balise hardware. They then relied on software to bridge the functionality gap, without realising the fundamental limitations of the system they were using.
 

thejuggler

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2016
Messages
1,186
No heating on my 195 unit this morning - only 2 degrees outside and sideways snow so of course no need for it!

I was sat next to two Northern staff - one a driver - and they were moaning about how poor the units were.
 

mrcaa

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2019
Messages
137
No heating on my 195 unit this morning - only 2 degrees outside and sideways snow so of course no need for it!

I was sat next to two Northern staff - one a driver - and they were moaning about how poor the units were.
I had the same last night. I wonder what’s up with it?
 

palmersears

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2011
Messages
1,485
024 now at Edge Hill, which I think leaves just 025, 131, 132 and 133 to be delivered.
 

86247

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
306
Location
clock face
Apparently 195025 was seen at Bolton le sands today. But with everything else I will believe it when I see It myself.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,933
Apparently 195025 was seen at Bolton le sands today. But with everything else I will believe it when I see It myself.

Do you mean in passenger service? If so, was a time/direction quoted? If it was seen in service, there's still time to track it down.
What's your source of information?
 

palmersears

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2011
Messages
1,485
Do you mean in passenger service? If so, was a time/direction quoted? If it was seen in service, there's still time to track it down.
What's your source of information?
Somebody on Trainloggger has recorded it thus. They are not correct, it hasn't yet been delivered (a typo or a misread of 195125 is most likely).
 

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
1,011
No heating on my 195 unit this morning - only 2 degrees outside and sideways snow so of course no need for it!

I was sat next to two Northern staff - one a driver - and they were moaning about how poor the units were.
They look good and a completely different interior but overly complicated to operate and the software problems are unfortunate. One guard said they destest them to me. Others you can tell dread the doors malfunctioning at a major station when they are about to release the doors.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top