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Train stuck just outside ManchesterPiccadilly-Mon 10/02

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Mathew S

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Breaking it down a bit - the Guard not patrolling with a broken PA is pretty poor - although as you yourself conceded the guard was apparently oblivious to the faulty nature of the PA. I can’t see where the railway has breached the rules it’s trying to enforce here?

Coming to the notices I refer to - they’re all worded slightly different but typically it just says to await instructions from staff. It doesn’t put a time limit on it. It doesn’t even say it has to be the on train staff. It just says wait. If your life is in immediate danger you will be acutely aware of that fact - up until that point you are always safer on the train - even in any of the scenarios listed above.
Interestingly, on the 195 I'm travelling on right now, there's no mention of staff instructions at all. In fact, the word staff doesn't appear once.
All it says is "In most situations it is safest to remain on the train," and, "if required, self evacuate." (I'm paraphrasing slightly.) Only AFTER I have self evacuated from the train does it say I should listen for instructions.

On the thing about the PA, it's a peculiar one because I would assume that, if it is working correctly, the guard would be able to hear it from his cab? In which case you would hope that, particularly in a situation like yesterday, standing instructions would be to go and talk to your passengers. It's a tough one and, yes, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely didn't know - but I'm not convinced I should be tbh. It really was very, very poor.

Edit: photo of a Class 195 safety poster:
20200211_145653.jpg
 
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mandub

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Didn't they try coupling another 319, but failed?

Heard that they tried coupling with a 323 initially but unable to do so.
And also that the unit had a fault before it set off, but control insisted it could run OK.
 

Horizon22

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On the thing about the PA, it's a peculiar one because I would assume that, if it is working correctly, the guard would be able to hear it from his cab? In which case you would hope that, particularly in a situation like yesterday, standing instructions would be to go and talk to your passengers.

Some stock you can't - certainly when your using the PA in a carriage it can deliberately quieten the announcement in your immediate coach. However I wouldn't know how it works on all stock, just the ones I have used.

But yes even if it was working, I would still except a guard to come through the train had you been stranded for 30+ minutes, let alone 120.
 

talltim

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Some stock you can't - certainly when your using the PA in a carriage it can deliberately quieten the announcement in your immediate coach. However I wouldn't know how it works on all stock, just the ones I have used.

But yes even if it was working, I would still except a guard to come through the train had you been stranded for 30+ minutes, let alone 120.
Yes, I was by the buffet on a 222 yesterday when they did an anouncement, couldn't hear it on the speakers only the TM speaking. (Mind you, the PA on 222s is very flaky anyway)
 

Bletchleyite

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But yes even if it was working, I would still except a guard to come through the train had you been stranded for 30+ minutes, let alone 120.

I agree (unless it would require them to walk along the ballast). As soon as a "really bad news" announcement has been made and all operational duties discharged, the guard should walk through and ask if anyone needs any assistance, and start to build a picture of where people are going and what further assistance they might need.
 

jonnyfan

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Can anyone confirm how this incident was eventually resolved? MEN link above would appear to show evacuation to an adjacent train via wheelchair ramp with staff standing on the ballast both sides, presumably to compensate for lack of handrails. But someone above suggested it might be a stock picture.
The initial response was to send a 323 to couple up to the stranded 319 and move the 319 into Piccadilly, however, after several attempts this failed. Plan B was that the 323 was then moved (to the Mayfield loop) next to the 319 and a train to train evacuation was carried out, through 2 pairs of doors that were aligned using the on train ramps from both units (with the support of train crew and Network Rail staff). Approx 350 passengers moved from the 319 to the 323, which then headed towards Longsight and then back to Piccadilly (as the 319 was fouling the points at the Mayfield loop at the Piccadilly end).
 

Skymonster

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The woeful disregard for passenger wellbeing (note I say wellbeing, not safety) in this case is truly staggering, especially given previous incidents when customers have chosen to evacuate. If, as reported, the clown involved chose to hide away for two hours, whoever it was has done more for the case to move to DOO than any DFT move. What point is there having a guard on a train if all he does is sit on his arse and does nothing to check on the passengers in such circumstances? After such a period, working PA or not, he should be passing down the train checking on customers are reassuring them. What if one of the passengers had become ill? I’m amazed no one tried to contact the driver or the guard for an update using the safety comm system. And if they got no reply to that either, I’m surprised no one decided to evacuate - I have no doubt that after two hours of no communication I would be doing all I could to get out, signs saying don’t do it or not. The railway has got to learn that communicating with customers is just as important as their immediate safety - and a failure to do so creates its own extreme safety risks. Hiding behind a rule book isn’t good enough. No organisation has a right to incarcerate its customers for two hours without communicating with them (whatever that takes), and I would have had 100% sympathy with and support for anyone who took matters into their own hands.
 

jonnyfan

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The woeful disregard for passenger wellbeing (note I say wellbeing, not safety) in this case is truly staggering, especially given previous incidents when customers have chosen to evacuate. If, as reported, the clown involved chose to hide away for two hours, whoever it was has done more for the case to move to DOO than any DFT move. What point is there having a guard on a train if all he does is sit on his arse and does nothing to check on the passengers in such circumstances? After such a period, working PA or not, he should be passing down the train checking on customers are reassuring them. What if one of the passengers had become ill? I’m amazed no one tried to contact the driver or the guard for an update using the safety comm system. And if they got no reply to that either, I’m surprised no one decided to evacuate - I have no doubt that after two hours of no communication I would be doing all I could to get out, signs saying don’t do it or not. The railway has got to learn that communicating with customers is just as important as their immediate safety - and a failure to do so creates its own extreme safety risks. Hiding behind a rule book isn’t good enough. No organisation has a right to incarcerate its customers for two hours without communicating with them (whatever that takes), and I would have had 100% sympathy with and support for anyone who took matters into their own hands.
There were two separate incidents at around the same time,
the stranded 319 outside Picc - where there was a complete train failure, all power gone including PA etc - the guard for this train was constantly making his way back and forth the train for the duration of the 'stranding' as there was no other way to communicate to passengers or the driver for that matter.

there was a second incident at Deansgate - where the guard used PA to keep passengers informed, but it transpired that the PA was faulty (which the guard was unaware of).
 

bahnause

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The first problem that I can think of is: There is no „the railway“. There are a load of TOCs and there is Network Rail. TOCs habe different requirements for their trains, so no standard couplers will be considered by them. And neither the TOCs nor NR will be willing to pay for rescue trains. Not voluntarily. Someone will have to force them and be willing to accept the costs.

SBB has 16 firefighting and rescue trains for a network of 3232km. These are manned 24/7. They can be used to drag failed trains as well as for evacuations. They carry the adapters for most couplers. The goal is to get the passengers off a stranded train in 60 minutes. It´s a very ambitious goal, but not unrealistic. The tight limit ensures, that a quick solution is found. SBB Infrastructure is also allowed to use any TOCs loco/train to drag a blocked train to a convenient place. The TOC of the failing train will be billed for the service provided. It‘s all in the network statement, you agree or you don‘t run trains on the SBB network.
 

Mathew S

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there was a second incident at Deansgate - where the guard used PA to keep passengers informed, but it transpired that the PA was faulty (which the guard was unaware of).
I think it's important that I add some context to that.
As well as the extended delay near Deansgate, the train I was on was delayed at Bolton due to, I think, there being a broken down train in Platform 1. We were routed through platform 4, rather than 3, and sat for ~10 minutes waiting to get out of the station, as Preston bound trains were routed through Platform 3.

Why do I say this? Well, the guard was nowhere to be seen during this either. This despite me being sat right at the rear of the train, where I really would have expected to see the guard at least once during the journey.

It may be that he was trying to make announcements and didn't realise the PA was faulty. It may be that he was entirely occupied with other duties for the whole journey. But my gut instinct is that it's unlikely either of those things are the case. Travelling on the you're everyday, I get to recognise those guards who are proactive, getting up and down the train, providing customer service. This gentleman was not one of those guards.
 

Bletchleyite

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With regard to the passcom, 319s have a traditional "emergency brake" type device and not a device where you can talk to anyone, if I recall correctly. Applying the brakes of an unpowered stationary train is, fairly understandably, going to have a somewhat negligible effect.
 

Grumpy Git

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The elephant in the room is that the TOC's hide behind the H&S cloak.

Everything in today's highly regulated world has to be covered by some H&S 'SOP' (standard operating proceedure) or such like, which us basically a get-out clause for industry employing (un) trained monkeys.

Bulls**t of the highest order and a good excuse for TOC's to protect their revenue / keeps cost down.

Like has been said earlier, what was wrong with stopping all traffic for 20 minutes and shoving the dead 319 into a Piccadilly bay with a Longsight loco?

Rant over.
 

Llanigraham

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My view is that the railway needs to spend money on more standby teams able to conduct evacuations and equipment to ease such evacuations, and on the provision of emergency toilet facilities ("bog in a bag") and bottled water on ALL trains for the event of such a stranding.

Things need to change.

1/ Are you as a passenger willing to pay increased fares for these things?
2/ How much water do you intend being carried?
3/ How many emergency toilet facilities are to be carried?
4/ Where are all these items to be carried?
5/ Are you happy that passenger space will have to be reduced to carry these supplies?
6/ Are you willing to pay for the expensive disposal of this "waste" by increased fares?
7/ Who will issue these supplies to the passengers?
 

Dr Hoo

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The elephant in the room is that the TOC's hide behind the H&S cloak.

Everything in today's highly regulated world has to be covered by some H&S 'SOP' (standard operating proceedure) or such like, which us basically a get-out clause for industry employing (un) trained monkeys.

Bulls**t of the highest order and a good excuse for TOC's to protect their revenue / keeps cost down.

Like has been said earlier, what was wrong with stopping all traffic for 20 minutes and shoving the dead 319 into a Piccadilly bay with a Longsight loco?

Rant over.
I thought that we had established that assistance with a nominally compatible Tightlock-equipped Class 323 had failed, presumably because the Class 319 was well and truly 'locked up'. How would a non-compatible locomotive have helped?
 

3141

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If the guard was making announcements but no-one could hear them because the PA was faulty, didn't any passenger knock on the door of the rear cab to let the guard know there was a communication problem? If they did, what happened?
 

Llama

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I'm pretty sure any loco with a buckeye can couple to a 319 with a tightlock coupler. 319s carry a couple of fittings (believe it or not a 'toadstool' and a 'mushroom') in every cab for this eventuality.

Loco attached, all service brakes isolated on the 319, 5mph to clear the line with a competent person in the leading cab of the 319 to apply the parking brake manually in the unlikely event the train divides - that would be the only way to stop the 319 if service brakes are isolated.

However, the above is only possible if the main air system on the 319 is intact and the problem is electrical. If it's not, and depending on where the air leak is, things can get more complicated.

However, going back to assisting the unit with a loco, say the 350 shunt loco on Longsight - that takes someone competent to drive the loco (an Alstom depot driver) and someone able to route conduct that depot driver from Longsight to the failed train and thence into Piccadilly once attached (the depot driver won't meet competence standards for mainline driving and will have no route knowledge outside the depot boundaries). The shunt loco won't have mainline safety systems (GSMR, TPWS, OTDR) so some risk assessment would need to be made before it can venture out onto the main line, probably to the extent that every other train movement is stopped for maybe an hour while this movement is carried out.

It would be nice if train failures led to TOCs putting out bulletins in response to incidents, even if only published internally, to say what happened, what the cause was and what was required to shift the failure. This never happens.
 

LAX54

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From what I can see from RTT timings, the train was south of Ardwick Jn, on the Airport lines (Down Slow), at the time of failure.
That's a lot more than "150 metres" from the Piccadilly platforms, more like half a mile.
It would probably be somewhere near the exit from Longsight depot at Longsight North Jn and a long way from a safe location.

Was at 'Mayfield' where ever that is :)
as far as I can see. failed at 0920, 1015 rescue unit arrived, 1035 unable to release brakes (even after EBS) 1055, detached (after further attempts) and rescue unit ran to the loop, 1100 self evacuation seems to have started, followed by managed evacuation, 1150 evacuation complete, cannot see what happens after that, so a long time, but looking at the times things happened, then it looks like could not have been done much quicker.
I alos assume the weather was less than good as well !
 

JohnMcL7

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That's actually a really badly designed poster because it implies it's fine just to get off once the train has stopped.

The first statement says it's safer to stay on the train in most circumstances and the very first instruction with the warning hand up says 'Stay on the train' followed by a recommendation to move to the next coach if necessary. The instructions for leaving the train are put at the end which doesn't to me at all suggest it's fine to just get off, it makes it quite clear you should stay on the train by default.
 

billh

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Was at 'Mayfield' where ever that is :)
as far as I can see. failed at 0920, 1015 rescue unit arrived, 1035 unable to release brakes (even after EBS) 1055, detached (after further attempts) and rescue unit ran to the loop, 1100 self evacuation seems to have started, followed by managed evacuation, 1150 evacuation complete, cannot see what happens after that, so a long time, but looking at the times things happened, then it looks like could not have been done much quicker.
I alos assume the weather was less than good as well !
Is the failed unit still at Mayfield? If not how was it moved after the evacuation?I assume somebody in the know came and pressed some buttons, isolated brakes and away it went coupled with another unit? Why could that not have happened much earlier in the incident, ok with suitable precautions because passengers were still aboard?
 

jfollows

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Is the failed unit still at Mayfield? If not how was it moved after the evacuation?I assume somebody in the know came and pressed some buttons, isolated brakes and away it went coupled with another unit? Why could that not have happened much earlier in the incident, ok with suitable precautions because passengers were still aboard?
Platform 8 at 12:03 according to the first link in my first post.

EDIT: Attached as PDF for future reference when the Realtimes Trains link has expired.
 

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craigybagel

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Is the failed unit still at Mayfield? If not how was it moved after the evacuation?I assume somebody in the know came and pressed some buttons, isolated brakes and away it went coupled with another unit? Why could that not have happened much earlier in the incident, ok with suitable precautions because passengers were still aboard?

Platform 8 at 12:03 according to the first link in my first post.

EDIT: Attached as PDF for future reference when the Realtimes Trains link has expired.

I worked in and out of Piccadilly twice whilst all of this was going on. It was eventually rescued by another 319 - the last I saw of it it was pushing the dead unit through platform 14 (and I'm assuming all the way to Allerton for repairs).

The first time I passed the unit the pantograph was down, it was clearly on battery power (only one taillight illuminated, which was the first thing that brought it to my attention), but it was still full of passengers. The second time, a few hours later, it was empty and the driver was on the track behind it with dets put down providing assistance protection, as the rescue 319 was drawing towards him. About 15 minutes later is when I saw the two units passing through platform 14 at Piccadilly.
 

Mathew S

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If the guard was making announcements but no-one could hear them because the PA was faulty, didn't any passenger knock on the door of the rear cab to let the guard know there was a communication problem? If they did, what happened?
The thing about 150s is that you can't. There's a corridor, so you can knock on the door however much you like, nobody in the cab is gonna hear you.
 

Llama

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I'm not sure if I've missed something but the failure was a 319. On a 150/1 a decent knock on the saloon door is pretty likely to be heard if the cab is occupied. On a /2 the saloon door should be unlocked on Northern 150s.

If the PIS was dead the guard would be aware of it. However there's a very common issue with TrainFX PIS whereby all announcements, manual and automatic, are only played in the cabs not the saloon, despite it appearing to be working normally. The guard may have been under the impression they were doing a good job making regular announcements but unfortunately thwarted by yet more unreliable software based systems on trains in the TrainFX system.
 

Mathew S

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The first statement says it's safer to stay on the train in most circumstances and the very first instruction with the warning hand up says 'Stay on the train' followed by a recommendation to move to the next coach if necessary. The instructions for leaving the train are put at the end which doesn't to me at all suggest it's fine to just get off, it makes it quite clear you should stay on the train by default.
The problem with it, I think, is it just says "if required..." get off. It doesn't say who should make the decision whether it is required or not. Just reading that poster implies that if you believe it's required, you should get off.
 

al78

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In short, yes.

You cannot put people in harm’s way just because a stranded train doesn’t have a toilet. Trackside is a hazardous enough environment without it being one of the worst storms in the past 20 years outside.

It wasn't one of the worst storms in the past 20 years. The storms during the 2013/14 winter were at least as bad, if not worse.
 

a_c_skinner

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The arrangements for rescuing stranded passengers will only be reviewed after someone is seriously hurt or killed when they have alighted onto the track after an inordinate delay. So far we have been lucky.
 

Mathew S

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It wasn't one of the worst storms in the past 20 years. The storms during the 2013/14 winter were at least as bad, if not worse.
Something can still be "one of the worst" even if there have been others worse than it, though.
The arrangements for rescuing stranded passengers will only be reviewed after someone is seriously hurt or killed when they have alighted onto the track after an inordinate delay. So far we have been lucky.
Yeah, that's not good enough. I agree with you, but it's not. I can't help feeling it needs someone to force the issue.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Was at 'Mayfield' where ever that is :)
as far as I can see. failed at 0920, 1015 rescue unit arrived, 1035 unable to release brakes (even after EBS) 1055, detached (after further attempts) and rescue unit ran to the loop, 1100 self evacuation seems to have started, followed by managed evacuation, 1150 evacuation complete, cannot see what happens after that, so a long time, but looking at the times things happened, then it looks like could not have been done much quicker.
I alos assume the weather was less than good as well !

Yes, that clears up the location.
Mayfield loop is just south of Piccadilly station, about 20 chains from the P13/14 platforms the failed train was heading for on the Down Slow.
It is normally used to reverse trains which terminate from the west at Piccadilly (like some of the TfW North Wales services).
Still a very difficult location for detraining to be attempted, but yes, you would be able to see the Piccadilly platforms from the train.
 
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