Mark Hopwood's 4 week update

Wilts Wanderer · 7 Feb 2020

43096 said:
That'll be the same Mark Hopwood who didn't communicate to his customers (to the extent that he had to offer an apology for not replying to the Cotswold Line Promotion Group - President Lord Faulkner, vice-presidents include David Cameron) and certainly didn't bother with issuing an apology to the rest of his passengers after the spectacularly botched training programme for the IEPs which left services in chaos at weekends for the best part of 18 months.

Sorry, but I remain to be convinced.

Clearly there's no convincing someone who knows very well that the IET training programme had to be spectacularly compressed due to late fleet delivery, to the extent that midweek RDW was being utilised to complete training to avoid running severely short of trained drivers when the HSTs were phased out of service.

RailUK Forums

northernbelle · 8 Feb 2020

Wilts Wanderer said:
Clearly there's no convincing someone who knows very well that the IET training programme had to be spectacularly compressed due to late fleet delivery, to the extent that midweek RDW was being utilised to complete training to avoid running severely short of trained drivers when the HSTs were phased out of service.

There isn't. I wouldn't bother trying tbh.

Goldfish62 · 8 Feb 2020

I've extremely surprised he's only staying at SWR for three months. Surely things can't be turned around in that time. He also appears to have fibbed in his first update when he promised to make significant improvements over the next year..

Also, three months won't be long enough to end the guards' dispute and surely what the company needs is stability at the top to face up to how to deal with it.

father_jack · 8 Feb 2020

Wilts Wanderer said:
Clearly there's no convincing someone who knows very well that the IET training programme had to be spectacularly compressed due to late fleet delivery, to the extent that midweek RDW was being utilised to complete training to avoid running severely short of trained drivers when the HSTs were phased out of service.

He's not wrong by being unconvinced....
Look at the Sunday carnage while all the midweek RD WK was going on. An issue not dealt with because the company was/is unwilling to do so.

43096 · 8 Feb 2020

Wilts Wanderer said:
Clearly there's no convincing someone who knows very well that the IET training programme had to be spectacularly compressed due to late fleet delivery, to the extent that midweek RDW was being utilised to complete training to avoid running severely short of trained drivers when the HSTs were phased out of service.

You have completely missed the point about communicating with customers.

I’d also question the “spectacularly compressed” comment on training. Acceptance of the IEPs was from May 17 to October 18 per the franchise agreement, with 802 deliveries due May 18 to Feb 19. Initial acceptance slipped by around 3/4 months and full service was May 19, so also slipped around 3 months. I’m not seeing anything “spectacularly compressed” about that. Besides, there really ought to be contingency in training schedules - a 3 month delay in new stock delivery is easily foreseeable. If the training was that tight that there was no contingency that’s just rank bad management.

Further, once it was realised there was a problem, then planned in advance timetable reductions should have been implemented, rather than random on the day cancellations that often saw many hour gaps on some routes. Again, that’s poor management.

Clarence Yard · 8 Feb 2020

Dealing with the last point first, that was discussed but was not acceptable to the DfT. GWR were told they had to operate their full service.

The pressure point on the training was on the compressed nature of the programme thanks to late delivery coupled with the absolute insistance by the DfT that the trains had to be introduced on time in order to release the HST sets for Scotland.

If you contrast this with the more leisurely introduction of the 802 sets in late 2018/9 where the cascade could be continually matched to the train crew training availability, you will see the difference.

jimm · 8 Feb 2020

43096 said:
That'll be the same Mark Hopwood who didn't communicate to his customers (to the extent that he had to offer an apology for not replying to the Cotswold Line Promotion Group - President Lord Faulkner, vice-presidents include David Cameron) and certainly didn't bother with issuing an apology to the rest of his passengers after the spectacularly botched training programme for the IEPs which left services in chaos at weekends for the best part of 18 months.

Sorry, but I remain to be convinced.

I have no idea what the identity of the CLPG's president or a now former vice-president have got to do with any of this - unless you are trying to imply some sort of sinister Parliamentary-led conspiracy.

And the correspondence in question was with the group's chairman, John Ellis.

GWR managing director Mark Hopwood has written to CLPG chairman John Ellis about problems with train services on the Cotswold Line in recent months and has agreed to us publishing the letter online so that members can see what he had to say.

http://www.clpg.org.uk/blog/cotswold-line-service-problems-a-response-from-gwr/

I notice that the sole comment posted underneath it seems to pretty much sum up your views about First Group.

How many times do you say sorry before it dawns on you that 1) you are out of your depth 2) you work for the worst company in the UK for total incompetence and a couldn’t care less about the customer attitude? Resigning won’t solve it. Kicking First Group out of anything to do with travel would.

43096 said:
You have completely missed the point about communicating with customers.

I’d also question the “spectacularly compressed” comment on training. Acceptance of the IEPs was from May 17 to October 18 per the franchise agreement, with 802 deliveries due May 18 to Feb 19. Initial acceptance slipped by around 3/4 months and full service was May 19, so also slipped around 3 months. I’m not seeing anything “spectacularly compressed” about that. Besides, there really ought to be contingency in training schedules - a 3 month delay in new stock delivery is easily foreseeable. If the training was that tight that there was no contingency that’s just rank bad management.

Further, once it was realised there was a problem, then planned in advance timetable reductions should have been implemented, rather than random on the day cancellations that often saw many hour gaps on some routes. Again, that’s poor management.

And once again you are simply demonstrating your intense dislike of First Group, which manifests itself all over this forum, with no opportunity to have a go missed, in all manner of threads.

As for planned service cuts by a First Group TOC to allow for crew training, I wonder who would have been the first person to pop up here with loud condemnation of such an idea?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

What about Greater Anglia and the less than starry introduction of the Class 745 and 755 sets? When it comes to them, then you are all sweet reason about the problems. But it's not a First Group operation, so nothing to see there, eh?

infobleep · 13 Feb 2020

Over time Mark Hopwood wants to eliment skip stopping.

Here is an example of such a service, where I don't think the 7:01s with wider doors will help.

The 8:22 Guildford to Waterloo via Woking stopping service. It doesn't arrive into Guildford via Woking so it can't be cut short at Woking of started Thrrr, unless they have some additional staff and rolling stock. It is a 455/456 combo, assuming it's 10 cars.

The 8:19, Guildford to Waterloo via Woking fast service is currently a 442. It is often at least 2 minutes late departing Guildford and thus the 8:22 often leaves 3 minutes late most days.

Then it gets held up at Woking junction awaiting a platform. Eventually it will reach Surbtion late. Yesterday it was just 5 minutes late departing Surbtion. There had been a passenger taken ill further north so with both things going on they decided to run the train fast to Waterloo. Next train was the 9:11, which incidentally also started from Guildford.

Having wider doors wouldn't help with this service as it's the 8:19 causing the issue here. Perhaps that service could do with being a 701! :lol:

In all seriousness not stopping at Godalming on the 8:19 might help as it would allow the train to depart Guildford 2 minutes earlier. However that wouldn't be popular as the reason trains stop at Godalming is that is a popular place to travel from. The 7:18 doesn't stop at Godalming though. Alas there isn't a 7:22 to take advantage of that additional minute.

I see no easy solution to the 8:22 issues. As Mark Hopwood said, there is no silver bullet

Bletchleyite · 13 Feb 2020

infobleep said:
Over time Mark Hopwood wants to eliment skip stopping.

Decomplicate the unit and crew diagrams, then, and you can adopt the policy of "run everything in the peaks as booked even if it's late, and tidy it up after when it gets quiet with some cancellations and step-ups". That's how it was done on the south WCML very successfully for absolutely years, until LNR made a mess of it by overcomplicating things so it was no longer feasible.

mpthomson · 13 Feb 2020

theironroad said:
Really not sure what the bus lane thing is about as swt/r and NR have had rapid response units for a few years that are authorised under blues and twos arrangements of emergency services to attend critical infrastructure incidents.

NR certainly don't have any blue light matrix vehicles of their own, they're not classed an emergency service and wouldn't be legally able to drive under them even if they did possess any. They'd have to get a lift from one of the emergency services.

Blue light driving is restricted to;

Police/BTP/MP
Fire
Ambulance
Mountain Rescue
Coastguard
Military versions of the above plus Explosive Ordnance Disposal, plus a couple of other military tasks too

Even medical doctors can't drive under blues unless in very strictly defined circumstances ie normally connected to the ambulance service, otherwise they have to use green lights and must obey all traffic laws.

Bletchleyite · 13 Feb 2020

mpthomson said:
Even medical doctors can't drive under blues unless in very strictly defined circumstances ie normally connected to the ambulance service, otherwise they have to use green lights and must obey all traffic laws.

Which isn't unreasonable, as if you need a doctor quickly what you need is in fact an ambulance. Doctors on house calls are by definition of a lower priority.

Goldfish62 · 13 Feb 2020

mpthomson said:
NR certainly don't have any blue light matrix vehicles of their own, they're not classed an emergency service and wouldn't be legally able to drive under them even if they did possess any. They'd have to get a lift from one of the emergency services.

Blue light driving is restricted to;

Police/BTP/MP
Fire
Ambulance
Mountain Rescue
Coastguard
Military versions of the above plus Explosive Ordnance Disposal, plus a couple of other military tasks too

Even medical doctors can't drive under blues unless in very strictly defined circumstances ie normally connected to the ambulance service, otherwise they have to use green lights and must obey all traffic laws.

The TfL Emergency Response Unit uses blue lights.

Meerkat · 13 Feb 2020

Goldfish62 said:
The TfL Emergency Response Unit uses blue lights.

They are BTP driven aren’t they?

HH · 13 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Decomplicate the unit and crew diagrams

Can you elaborate a bit? What is complicated abut the existing diagrams?

I know that SWT used to use FCW (funded by NR, which gobsmacked me when I found out) in the peak, but NR withdrew funding as it appeared to have no benefit to performance.

Bletchleyite · 13 Feb 2020

HH said:
Can you elaborate a bit? What is complicated abut the existing diagrams?

I don't know, as I'm not familiar with them - but complex diagrams and interworking between routes (and diagrams where both crew and unit don't stay together) are generally the reason skip-stopping becomes the only way to keep things vaguely working. The simpler they are, the easier it is to just cancel a round trip at the outer terminus to bring things back on time.

HH · 13 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I don't know, as I'm not familiar with them - but complex diagrams and interworking between routes (and diagrams where both crew and unit don't stay together) are generally the reason skip-stopping becomes the only way to keep things vaguely working. The simpler they are, the easier it is to just cancel a round trip at the outer terminus to bring things back on time.

I have seen them, but I admit I can't recall the detail. But generally it's efficient for everything to stay together in the peak as the turnrounds are tight, so I'd be a bit surprised it complicated diagrams was the main cause of skip-stopping. I imagined it was simply the sheer volume of trains down the mainline, but I don't have any data to support that speculation.

pompeyfan · 13 Feb 2020

To be fair during both the peaks on the mainline from observation there’s very little that isn’t in and out worked and doesn’t stay on the same service group.

In my opinion the main issue is trains presenting late at key junctions, Worting, Great Western, Pirbright, Woking and Hampton Court. Defensive driving also is a contributing factor, drivers are taught (quite rightly) to kill the speed as soon as they see a restrictive aspect.

You’re happily bombing along at 80/90mph and you catch up with a late running Weymouth/Pompey or you get to Surbiton and the bobby has to let out a late running Alton/Basingstoke/2G9X. Double yellow and you bring the speed straight down to 40/50mph. Meanwhile the service up your chuff is now only doing 40. Eventually everyone starts running on greens and you have to wind it open again and slowly get back to speed. Suddenly you’ve gone from 1 train running 2 late, to 3 trains running 5L. There simply isn’t the capacity to run the service on paper. Hence when there is disputation service are turned at Basingstoke/Woking/Guildford.

HowardGWR · 13 Feb 2020

HH said:
Can you elaborate a bit? What is complicated abut the existing diagrams?

I know that SWT used to use FCW (funded by NR, which gobsmacked me when I found out) in the peak, but NR withdrew funding as it appeared to have no benefit to performance.

Presumably not Forward Collision Warning or Florida Championship Wrestling? An explanation would be appreciated, thanks.

HH · 13 Feb 2020

HowardGWR said:
Presumably not Forward Collision Warning or Florida Championship Wrestling? An explanation would be appreciated, thanks.

Full Crew Working. It means that driver and guard work the same diagram (i.e. they stay together throughout the shift). Some believe that this improves performance, but it makes the guard diagrams less efficient.

Snow1964 · 13 Feb 2020

HH said:
I have seen them, but I admit I can't recall the detail. But generally it's efficient for everything to stay together in the peak as the turnrounds are tight, so I'd be a bit surprised it complicated diagrams was the main cause of skip-stopping. I imagined it was simply the sheer volume of trains down the mainline, but I don't have any data to support that speculation.

I think in the busy part of the peak, train crews don't change on the shorter routes, but what does happen a lot is that due to platform turnaround times a train may come in from one place, say Hampton Court, and go out forming something else, say a Chessington train. Therefore a delay on one line can quickly affect trains on another line. The Skip stopping is to try and allow it to catch up time.

Any commuter that joins an outbound train in evening at Vauxhall will have seen the next train boards change because the next train is behind one it was due to follow. However there aren't really any catch up gaps between trains as line capacity is almost timetabled to 100%. Therefore if a train is late, inevitably is running in another trains path (delaying another one) rather than running in an unused slot. It is a resilience thing, if trains are timetabled every 2.5 minutes, can't slot a late runner in and hope the others clear section in 1.25 minutes so as not to affect next train timed 2.5 minutes behind. Even if working is (very) tight and all clear section every 2 minutes, one late one disrupts 4 behind it.

It is a mismatch between capacity / frequency expected by DfT and what line is signalled to cope with. Virtually no scope for any delays. Ideally need to build some emergency reversing siding at somewhere like London end of New Malden, because the late train can't be accomodated inwards to Waterloo from there.

pompeyfan · 13 Feb 2020

Snow1964 said:
Ideally need to build some emergency reversing siding at somewhere like London end of New Malden, because the late train can't be accomodated inwards to Waterloo from there.

Hopwood has said the plan is to place some extra ‘bolt holes’ but it’s not been shared on here where they are planned. The issue with placing them at New Malden is you have to get across the other lines. Even if you found room in the 10ft you’d still need to cross the UF to get in and the DF to get out.

HH · 13 Feb 2020

Snow1964 said:
I think in the busy part of the peak, train crews don't change on the shorter routes, but what does happen a lot is that due to platform turnaround times a train may come in from one place, say Hampton Court, and go out forming something else, say a Chessington train. Therefore a delay on one line can quickly affect trains on another line. The Skip stopping is to try and allow it to catch up time.

Any commuter that joins an outbound train in evening at Vauxhall will have seen the next train boards change because the next train is behind one it was due to follow. However there aren't really any catch up gaps between trains as line capacity is almost timetabled to 100%. Therefore if a train is late, inevitably is running in another trains path (delaying another one) rather than running in an unused slot. It is a resilience thing, if trains are timetabled every 2.5 minutes, can't slot a late runner in and hope the others clear section in 1.25 minutes so as not to affect next train timed 2.5 minutes behind. Even if working is (very) tight and all clear section every 2 minutes, one late one disrupts 4 behind it.

It is a mismatch between capacity / frequency expected by DfT and what line is signalled to cope with. Virtually no scope for any delays. Ideally need to build some emergency reversing siding at somewhere like London end of New Malden, because the late train can't be accomodated inwards to Waterloo from there.

Thanks, so that issue would be around the Unit diagrams - the crew are merely staying with the train - and the unit diagrams are being dictated by the need to vacate platforms. I guess that when ECTS is installed and all working then there will be scope to shorten the gaps between trains. That's a way off yet though.

daveshah · 13 Feb 2020

Is there even a plan for ECTS on the SWML yet?

infobleep · 13 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I don't know, as I'm not familiar with them - but complex diagrams and interworking between routes (and diagrams where both crew and unit don't stay together) are generally the reason skip-stopping becomes the only way to keep things vaguely working. The simpler they are, the easier it is to just cancel a round trip at the outer terminus to bring things back on time.

In this case the issue seems to be the late running 8:19 delaying the 8:22. I use this example as it's one I know and one that has an issue not related to wider doors.

Incidentally the 8:22 is formed off the 8:08 arrival, which from memory comes from Waterloo via Cobham. If that arrives on time for passengers, it can delay the 8:07 departure by 2 minutes. As that runs non stop from Surbtion to Waterloo, there is nothing to skip north of Surbtion when it's late.

The 8:08 is actually timetabled to arrive at 8:06 for the train crew and can be delayed by the 7:54 fast to Waterloo running late and that delaying the 7:58 via Epsom, since they want the fast train to run ahead. The 7:54 going via Cobham.

So there is a reasonable gap of 16 crew working minutes before the 8:22 needs to depart. That should be long enough.

pompeyfan said:
To be fair during both the peaks on the mainline from observation there’s very little that isn’t in and out worked and doesn’t stay on the same service group.

In my opinion the main issue is trains presenting late at key junctions, Worting, Great Western, Pirbright, Woking and Hampton Court. Defensive driving also is a contributing factor, drivers are taught (quite rightly) to kill the speed as soon as they see a restrictive aspect.

You’re happily bombing along at 80/90mph and you catch up with a late running Weymouth/Pompey or you get to Surbiton and the bobby has to let out a late running Alton/Basingstoke/2G9X. Double yellow and you bring the speed straight down to 40/50mph. Meanwhile the service up your chuff is now only doing 40. Eventually everyone starts running on greens and you have to wind it open again and slowly get back to speed. Suddenly you’ve gone from 1 train running 2 late, to 3 trains running 5L. There simply isn’t the capacity to run the service on paper. Hence when there is disputation service are turned at Basingstoke/Woking/Guildford.

Or skip stopping occurs. The very thing Mark Hopwood wants to elemenate in time.

hwl · 13 Feb 2020

daveshah said:
Is there even a plan for ECTS on the SWML yet?

ABDO on the metro services first to get better junction presentation and useful side effect is introducing ETCS ready rolling stock on the inners.

fgwrich · 13 Feb 2020

Meerkat said:
They are BTP driven aren’t they?

Yes, as are some of the Network Rail ERU Vehicles - The one at my station was BTP PC + NR MOM.

infobleep · 13 Feb 2020

hwl said:
ABDO on the metro services first to get better junction presentation and useful side effect is introducing ETCS ready rolling stock on the inners.

What does ABDO stand for? Automatic break detection operations?

Maybe that will help the inners but what about the metro services from the outers that share lines with fast trains.

Domh245 · 13 Feb 2020

infobleep said:
What does ABDO stand for?

Automatic Braking/Door Opening

Dunfanaghy Rd · 13 Feb 2020

Romsey said:
High Output Ballast Cleaners are fine for long plain line refurbishments, but come at a very high price and a high level of traffic disruption moving a 2500t train around. They are no good where there are underbridges, pointwork, trap pits in the 6 foot way etc.

The Ballast Vac (Ulrika) was much more useful for local maintainers, cleaning out and refilling wet patches easily in short overnight possessions. As they have proved so useful on the Southern they have been moved elsewhere in the country to less intensively used bits of railway.

Ulrika?? ( Built in Sweden so known as the Swedish Sucker or Ulrika...... )

Shame that this m/c went to scrap . Known as 'Monica' for some reason

Pat

quartile · 14 Feb 2020

There's a real capacity vs reliability trade-off going on place here. In the last change an extra fast service was introduced on the Guildford line which I guess was most welcome given the crowding on the route. But it would be more reliable if this service hadn't been introduced. I counted 25 fast line arrivals at Waterloo between 8:00 and 8:59 - is there any other UK non-ato mainline railway that runs that intensely?

Mark Hopwood's 4 week update

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Established Member

Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Member