• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
The heating issue is almost certainly user error. Putting the unit in 'empty transportation mode' (ET) coming off a depot knocks off the HVAC and some other systems and a lot of drivers don't realise that the HVAC has to be restarted manually when the unit is taken out of ET mode otherwise there will be no heating or air con on in that unit - and this is quite important to be working when in passenger service because the fire detection system is linked to the HVAC.

It's not really worth bothering with ET mode a lot of the time for the reason that the unit will quite likely enter service freezing in winter and roasting in summer.

A lot of guards are very cagey about working 195s & 331s because their training is very poor and the door systems and Asdo in particular are different from what they are already familiar with.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

mrcaa

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2019
Messages
137
The heating issue is almost certainly user error. Putting the unit in 'empty transportation mode' (ET) coming off a depot knocks off the HVAC and some other systems and a lot of drivers don't realise that the HVAC has to be restarted manually when the unit is taken out of ET mode otherwise there will be no heating or air con on in that unit - and this is quite important to be working when in passenger service because the fire detection system is linked to the HVAC.

It's not really worth bothering with ET mode a lot of the time for the reason that the unit will quite likely enter service freezing in winter and roasting in summer.

A lot of guards are very cagey about working 195s & 331s because their training is very poor and the door systems and Asdo in particular are different from what they are already familiar with.
There seem to be so many terrible design decisions from a UX perspective. If the HVAC was on when they put it in ET mode why doesn’t it just come back on when they take it out again? Especially if it needs to be on for fire detection. All these manual operations just seem to put too much cognitive load on the drivers and guards and they’re obviously not coping well with it considering all the issues we’re seeing.
 

adsteamfan

Member
Joined
12 Sep 2014
Messages
59
- and this is quite important to be working when in passenger service because the fire detection system is linked to the HVAC.
Surely the FDS is a safety critical system and should always be on - a fire can start even with no PAX onboard! Also, if a manual override is needed to turn the heating/cooling off, it should be to turn it off for ECS and so the units revert to 'on' when the unit stops at its first pick-up station and a full door release is applied by the guard.
My son is a Northern driver who has said from the beginning that these are cheap and he gets really frustrated when faced with a two-car as he knows that he'll get it in the neck from irate passengers who are either crammed in like sardines or left behind.
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
The heating issue is almost certainly user error. Putting the unit in 'empty transportation mode' (ET) coming off a depot knocks off the HVAC and some other systems and a lot of drivers don't realise that the HVAC has to be restarted manually when the unit is taken out of ET mode otherwise there will be no heating or air con on in that unit - and this is quite important to be working when in passenger service because the fire detection system is linked to the HVAC.

It's not really worth bothering with ET mode a lot of the time for the reason that the unit will quite likely enter service freezing in winter and roasting in summer.

A lot of guards are very cagey about working 195s & 331s because their training is very poor and the door systems and Asdo in particular are different from what they are already familiar with.
So a sealed air-conditioned unit has no fire detection if the driver forgets to enable the air conditioning? I think that speaks volumes about the design of these units doesn't it.
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
The fire detection system has two parts to it - there are linear heat cables detecting abnormal temperature above the engines and an automatic AFFF/nitrogen extinguisher system for engine fires, and there is the interior fire detection system which gives alarms to the driver. It is the interior system which is linked to the HVAC. The smoke detectors are in the ceiling in all parts of the train (saloon, cabs, WC) and there are also smoke detectors in the fresh air intakes for the HVAC. If a fire is detected within the train interior we are told that the HVAC attempts to purge the interior of smoke as much as possible by increasing and changing the airflow from the fans to replenish as much fresh air as it can. Obviously this isn't possible if the HVAC is off. The fire detection system would still function and should detect smoke within the train interior but the HVAC can't respond in trying to clear the smoke.

And yes, it's just bad design - there isn't even any direct warning to the driver on the TCMS that the HVAC is not functioning and needs manually restarting, even when the TCMS is aware that there are passengers on the train.
 

Roger B

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2018
Messages
891
Location
Gatley
I hope Eversholt / Northern are not paying for these things in full. Just about every component of these trains (and much of CAF's other UK rolling stock offerings) seem to be poorly designed, even less well manufactured, shake / rattle / judder / jolt with each imperfection in track that other manufacturer's trains barely seem to notice, and break / fall off / fall apart / become unusable within a short period of time. Is it any wonder that CAF is widely understood to mean something other than Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles?

Gerald Ratner's comment about products being "cheaper than an M&S prawn sandwich but probably wouldn't last as long" may be a little wide of the mark, in terms of price, but they're spot on otherwise. If and when another franchisee is appointed to succeed Arriva, I hope they decline to use the 195 fleet, and opt for something more up to the job - and which is easily adaptable for bi-mode, especially if the green light is given to more electrification.
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
I hope Eversholt / Northern are not paying for these things in full. Just about every component of these trains (and much of CAF's other UK rolling stock offerings) seem to be poorly designed, even less well manufactured, shake / rattle / judder / jolt with each imperfection in track that other manufacturer's trains barely seem to notice, and break / fall off / fall apart / become unusable within a short period of time. Is it any wonder that CAF is widely understood to mean something other than Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles?

Gerald Ratner's comment about products being "cheaper than an M&S prawn sandwich but probably wouldn't last as long" may be a little wide of the mark, in terms of price, but they're spot on otherwise. If and when another franchisee is appointed to succeed Arriva, I hope they decline to use the 195 fleet, and opt for something more up to the job - and which is easily adaptable for bi-mode, especially if the green light is given to more electrification.
Very unlikely in my opinion - Northern barely got new stock at all, I suspect they might not have (other than the handful of cascaded 170s and extra Sprinters) if it weren't for the political untenability of continued use of Pacers. I'd be very surprised if the 195s were replaced with anything - indeed, subsequent orders to replace Sprinters (if any occur) are more likely than not to be additional 195s, probably still 2-car in most cases.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,229
Location
Greater Manchester
And yes, it's just bad design - there isn't even any direct warning to the driver on the TCMS that the HVAC is not functioning and needs manually restarting, even when the TCMS is aware that there are passengers on the train.
Clearly the badly designed software in this and other systems needs to be fixed. But it seems to me that many of the in service issues (e.g. HVAC not turned on, doors reclosing unexpectedly) could have been avoided if Northern/CAF had issued 195 and 331 drivers and conductors with checklists that detailed the procedures needed to work around the various software bugs/"features".
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
Clearly the badly designed software in this and other systems needs to be fixed. But it seems to me that many of the in service issues (e.g. HVAC not turned on, doors reclosing unexpectedly) could have been avoided if Northern/CAF had issued 195 and 331 drivers and conductors with checklists that detailed the procedures needed to work around the various software bugs/"features".
Indeed, the 'drivers/guards don't think to / don't remember to / don't know how to' comments are very surprising given how extensive training processes sound like they normally are. Not blaming the staff concerned, but why are these sorts of mistakes being made?
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
The training material isn't good enough. The more conscientious drivers are creating their own memory joggers/checklists and obviously these are all uncontrolled and unchecked. The rest are hoping nothing untoward happens. If only there was a manual...
...oh wait there is, but nobody other than the people who put the course together, who don't actually drive trains, has been issued it!
 

a_c_skinner

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
1,576
Few people go to work to do a bad job, whatever their work. If it is user error it surely reflects poor design or inadequate training.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,269
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
The training material isn't good enough. The more conscientious drivers are creating their own memory joggers/checklists and obviously these are all uncontrolled and unchecked. The rest are hoping nothing untoward happens. If only there was a manual...
...oh wait there is, but nobody other than the people who put the course together, who don't actually drive trains, has been issued it!

I take it that this known fact about the existence of the manual will be one of the first points to be addressed by the people taking over the franchise from 1st March 2020.
 

mrcaa

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2019
Messages
137
I take it that this known fact about the existence of the manual will be one of the first points to be addressed by the people taking over the franchise from 1st March 2020.
Does anyone know why this manual’s not available to the drivers? If it was Arriva protecting their trade secrets then hopefully this can change under public operation but if it’s to do with CAF protecting their IP then I guess that wouldn’t change.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,229
Location
Greater Manchester
The training material isn't good enough. The more conscientious drivers are creating their own memory joggers/checklists and obviously these are all uncontrolled and unchecked. The rest are hoping nothing untoward happens. If only there was a manual...
...oh wait there is, but nobody other than the people who put the course together, who don't actually drive trains, has been issued it!
It is well known that word of mouth/trial and error/unofficial notes are not reliable ways of acquiring and recalling important procedural information.

The safety record of the aviation industry would be far worse than it actually is, were it not for all the checklists and operating manuals in the cockpit. Fortunately trains are more forgiving than planes, so the worst consequence of a procedural error is usually only a delay or cancellation.
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,682
Location
west yorkshire
I've always been amazed that trains dont have airline style check lists to aid crews.
I heard from a reliable source that CAF where unable to supply manuals for the Transpenine units and Transpennine had to do there own with some money changing hands. Northern probably the same.
CAF with virtually an empty factory when the bidding for the Northern stock reminds me of Metro Cammell when our clueless politicians engineered 1000 plus days with no train orders.
Like CAF an empty factory resulted and all the expertise left. Orders then restarted and the poor classes 458, 180, 175 etc the result. I hate politicians.
K
 

nigelsporne

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2012
Messages
86
I have read with interest and a wry smile or two about the many comments within this thread and others about the performance and/or the build quality of the 195s. I suspect many of the contributors do not remember the teething problems of the First Generation DMUs or even the Second Generation (150s) and the problems with these units. In those days we didn't have the social platforms that we have today to vent out views. I suspect Northern and the Manufacturer will have been under immense pressure to get these units into service and as a consequence inadequate testing and training will have taken place. Given time the problems will be sorted as they were with earlier units. I know what we will do! Why not put a bus onto a chassis as a simple solution! I don't know why that hasn't been done before!
 

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
5,219
Indeed, the 'drivers/guards don't think to / don't remember to / don't know how to' comments are very surprising given how extensive training processes sound like they normally are. Not blaming the staff concerned, but why are these sorts of mistakes being made?
With regards to the HVAC, the guards are unable to do anything with that - it can only be altered from the leading cab.
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
I have read with interest and a wry smile or two about the many comments within this thread and others about the performance and/or the build quality of the 195s. I suspect many of the contributors do not remember the teething problems of the First Generation DMUs or even the Second Generation (150s) and the problems with these units. In those days we didn't have the social platforms that we have today to vent out views. I suspect Northern and the Manufacturer will have been under immense pressure to get these units into service and as a consequence inadequate testing and training will have taken place. Given time the problems will be sorted as they were with earlier units. I know what we will do! Why not put a bus onto a chassis as a simple solution! I don't know why that hasn't been done before!
What problems were there with the 150s? They weren't problematic at the time they were introduced, much to the chagrin of those who preferred LHCS. 155s had issues with doors and 158s had issues with wrong side track circuit failures but 150/156 were pretty good.
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,682
Location
west yorkshire
What problems were there with the 150s? They weren't problematic at the time they were introduced, much to the chagrin of those who preferred LHCS. 155s had issues with doors and 158s had issues with wrong side track circuit failures but 150/156 were pretty good.
I remember the 158s had to have quite major repairs to the yaw damper brackets. All the 15x where trouble free compared with the latest computerised offerings.
I hope CAF have the incentive and expertise to sort out the more major problems particularly the software and the awfull ride.
K
 

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
1,011
I've always been amazed that trains dont have airline style check lists to aid crews.
I heard from a reliable source that CAF where unable to supply manuals for the Transpenine units and Transpennine had to do there own with some money changing hands. Northern probably the same.
CAF with virtually an empty factory when the bidding for the Northern stock reminds me of Metro Cammell when our clueless politicians engineered 1000 plus days with no train orders.
Like CAF an empty factory resulted and all the expertise left. Orders then restarted and the poor classes 458, 180, 175 etc the result. I hate politicians.
K
DfT/Northern/TPE aside - I'd be interested to know what Eversholt think as the ones who own the trains. They'll be lucky to get 10 years out of them - let alone 30!
 

a_c_skinner

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
1,576
Two trips today on 195s. One smooth and one with the thumps and clunks. I suppose it just needs adjusting...
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,682
Location
west yorkshire
With more pacers likely to be withdrawn soon what's the position of the 10 or so stored 195s which haven't turn a wheel in revenue service.
K
 

ed1971

Member
Joined
14 Jan 2009
Messages
589
Location
Wigan
What problems were there with the 150s? They weren't problematic at the time they were introduced, much to the chagrin of those who preferred LHCS. 155s had issues with doors and 158s had issues with wrong side track circuit failures but 150/156 were pretty good.

Rotten floors on 150/2s after two years of service. The floors had to be replaced.
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
The doors won't ever be worked from the cabs, not by a guard anyway.
 

Class195

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
298
Location
Bradford
One thing you can immediately tell about the 195s and 331s is the cheapness with the bodies.

Yes, it's pleasing to have a form of new train but the passenger experience is far far worse than say traveling on a 158 or 170 etc....
 

Class195

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
298
Location
Bradford
Would Northern pay money to make a mod that would allow guards to hide, probably the most oft-complained about thing in relation to some guards?

Sorry, I should have been clearer, my point was on watching a 331 suffer a delay of around ten minutes at Manchester Oxford Road because the train was completely packed and the conductor just couldn't get to and open and close the doors.

Yes, it was a train during the peaks but watching the conductor trying to squeeze around the train to open the doors causing a large number of delay minutes got me thinking about the door panels in the back cab.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top