• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Storm Dennis disruption 15th & 16th

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
3,912
Location
Hope Valley
To be fair to the TOCs, wind damage is much less predictable than flooding, and generally railways are probably more susceptible to it than major roads are. But yes, thinking ahead to Storm Dennis, the railways should have a good understanding of where lines flood and what the chances are of a replacement bus getting through. BR certainly would have.
Hmm. During all my time as an operations manager on BR I never recall replacement buses (for flooding) being arranged pre-emptively.
Can you provide some examples of where this was done?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

philthetube

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
3,749
There will have been places they couldn't - I got a lift from Ambleside to Lancaster on Sunday last week and there was at several locations a bit of a feeling of "we're among the last few out until tomorrow" - this was via back roads as the main roads were shut in several places. So buses for say the Windermere branch might have been out of the question, but I could see no reason why buses couldn't have operated from Carlisle to Preston via the M6, even if slightly esoteric routes were needed in some of the towns.

Send out the bus driver, tell him/her that with luck a route somewhere will be passable and if you end up in the middle of nowhere, stuck with 53 passengers they won't mind because we tried.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,075
Send out the bus driver, tell him/her that with luck a route somewhere will be passable and if you end up in the middle of nowhere, stuck with 53 passengers they won't mind because we tried.
... and better not send a double decker - just in case!
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
TFW have not made any announcement yet and are still telling Tweeters to keep checking on Journey Check. However, they have started loading details of service restrictions in West Wales and along the North Wales Coast on Saturday.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,182
Location
Fenny Stratford
For a starters by providing rail replacement buses, they know now where the railway will likely flood and they can’t use the excuse of ‘it’s too dangerous’ to run buses as National Express and Scottish Citylink ran a normal service during storm Ciara...

Send out the bus driver, tell him/her that with luck a route somewhere will be passable and if you end up in the middle of nowhere, stuck with 53 passengers they won't mind because we tried.

and that is exactly the reason why they don't - liability.

That isn't to say no buses should run just that the operator needs to be sure they will get both there and back keeping everyone safe doing so all of the time. It dosn't take a massive leap in imagination to see the headlines and hear the legal cash registers ring over a bus stuck somewhere horrible for hours in bad weather.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That isn't to say no buses should run just that the operator needs to be sure they will get both there and back keeping everyone safe doing so all of the time. It dosn't take a massive leap in imagination to see the headlines and hear the legal cash registers ring over a bus stuck somewhere horrible for hours in bad weather.

At least you can get off and walk (to merge this with the thread about a stranded train). Once you're off you're at your own risk, including if you walk through a flood.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
TFW have not made any announcement yet and are still telling Tweeters to keep checking on Journey Check. However, they have started loading details of service restrictions in West Wales and along the North Wales Coast on Saturday.

I'm going to Wales this weekend, I was going to go by train and bus but I'm going to drive...at least with the Defender I shouldn't get flooded in! (And maybe I can be of help to anyone who does get stuck).
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
TFW have not made any announcement yet and are still telling Tweeters to keep checking on Journey Check. However, they have started loading details of service restrictions in West Wales and along the North Wales Coast on Saturday.

TFW have now published that "severe weather" has brought about imposition of speed restrictions so service cut back
 

westv

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2013
Messages
4,203
I'm now wondering whether my Monday morning LNER Hull to London service will be cancelled for the second Monday in a row.
 

philthetube

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
3,749
Tell that to Stagecoach who were operating the 40 on time all day.

We are not talking about a regular bus route, where the drivers are familiar with the road, know where problems are likely to occur and, quile likely diversions if needed.

likely drivers on rrb will not know the area, don't know if they will end up stuck on a road with a sharp bend or some other problem and are not suitably qualified to safely do the job in this sort of weather. Providing training for this sort of work in all circumstances would never be practical.
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,223
Flooding depends very much about where and how much it rains. Some sites are frequent offenders, many others aren’t. Same applies to earthwork failures.
Rail user groups in the Calder Valley have been campaigning for years to have the Summit West ground frame put on to Preston panel. At present operation of the cross-over requires staff to go out to to work a small lever frame on site, inevitably in poor weather. Remote operation would allow trains from Manchester to turn back at Littleborough rather than Rochdale when there is flooding further east. Buses could then run from Littleborough via the A58 to Sowerby Bridge, avoiding the valley altogether. From the other direction, the signalling now allows trains to turn back at Todmorden rather than Hebden Bridge, useful when the main road between the two towns is also flooded and replacement buses can't get through.

Dealing with the flooding problem at source (usually around Walsden) would require Network Rail, the Environment Agency and probably other landowners to get together and decide on a solution, and agree who pays for it. This is no longer a once every 50 years event. There are no doubt many reasons why little seems to get done, but the overriding one may be that as it only happens every now and then, it’s easier and cheaper to do nothing.
 
Last edited:

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,074
Location
Powys
Tell that to Stagecoach who were operating the 40 on time all day.

Who's drivers will have been rostered for those shifts.
That will not be the case with companies providing RRB's, who will have to call drivers in voluntarily.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,685
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
and that is exactly the reason why they don't - liability.

That isn't to say no buses should run just that the operator needs to be sure they will get both there and back keeping everyone safe doing so all of the time. It dosn't take a massive leap in imagination to see the headlines and hear the legal cash registers ring over a bus stuck somewhere horrible for hours in bad weather.

I find this would "buses should be arranged" notion quite odd, TBH.

Does it not bother anyone that their bus is at quite a high risk of hitting a tree or having one fall on top of it? Road vehicles don't seem particularly resistant to this kind of risk. I'd have thought it would bother people that they're putting themselves at quite a risk of injury, and of course spare a thought for the driver at the sharp end.

Or do people think "it won't happen to me"?
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,182
Location
Fenny Stratford
I find this would "buses should be arranged" notion quite odd, TBH.

Does it not bother anyone that their bus is at quite a high risk of hitting a tree or having one fall on top of it? Road vehicles don't seem particularly resistant to this kind of risk. I'd have thought it would bother people that they're putting themselves at quite a risk of injury, and of course spare a thought for the driver at the sharp end.

Or do people think "it won't happen to me"?

Yes, people think "it wont happen to me".

Conditions dependent buses can run. The question must be should they run. I can see exactly why TOC's decide the answer is no!
 

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
654
Location
london
Anyone know what the LNER plan is specifically for Saturday? Is Highland Chieftain planned run through to Inverness?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,685
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Yes, people think "it wont happen to me".

Conditions dependent buses can run. The question must be should they run. I can see exactly why TOC's decide the answer is no!

Completely agree. Even if we work on the basis that buses do run, I find it surprising people would actually want to travel on one. I certainly wouldn't.

Last Sunday was hair-raising enough going in on the back end of a 12-car train doing less than 50 mph, I really wouldn't want to be on a bus, and far less in a taxi.
 

Saint66

Member
Joined
15 Dec 2013
Messages
807
Location
Herts
Anyone know what the LNER plan is specifically for Saturday? Is Highland Chieftain planned run through to Inverness?
Not yet... I'm due to travel to Sunday and I've just received en email warning of speed restrictions, cancellations and delays.
 

Peregrine 4903

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2019
Messages
1,443
Location
London
Tommorow me and my family are travelling from Euston to Craven Arms via Crewe.

What is the probability that we will actually to complete this journey on time?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,685
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Tommorow me and my family are travelling from Euston to Craven Arms via Crewe.

What is the probability that we will actually to complete this journey on time?

How long's a piece of string?

Given there's already the prospect of speed restrictions, I'd say it's unlikely the journey will be completed on time.

Whether it's completed at all, or within anything remotely close of on time, depends on nature, so is hard to predict. Something like a flood, landslide or overhead wire damage could shut the entire job down for a long time.
 

Peregrine 4903

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2019
Messages
1,443
Location
London
How long's a piece of string?

Given there's already the prospect of speed restrictions, I'd say it's unlikely the journey will be completed on time

Whether it's completed at all, or within anything remotely close of on time, depends on nature, so is hard to predict. Something like a flood, landslide or overhead wire damage could shut the entire job down for a long time.

I certainly dont expect us to be on time, but I'm just worried about completing the journey at all.

Are there any specific speed restrictions on the West Coast Mainline or the line from Crewe to Craven Arms that you know are happening?
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,074
Location
Powys
I certainly dont expect us to be on time, but I'm just worried about completing the journey at all.

Are there any specific speed restrictions on the West Coast Mainline or the line from Crewe to Craven Arms that you know are happening?

If the 50mph limit is impossed it covers all lines in that area. Certainly looking at the current warning maps Crewe south is likeiy to be affected.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
I certainly dont expect us to be on time, but I'm just worried about completing the journey at all.

Are there any specific speed restrictions on the West Coast Mainline or the line from Crewe to Craven Arms that you know are happening?
TfW are terminating services from Manchester at Cardiff, which indicates they are expecting disruption. Avanti haven't published anything yet.
The Amber warnings this time are for rain not wind, and speed restrictions for flooding aren't much use.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
Tell that to Stagecoach who were operating the 40 on time all day.

With their own vehicles, locally based and with regular drivers.

Slightly different to ringing round operators trying to persuade them to commit vehicles and staff.
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,082
There will have been places they couldn't - I got a lift from Ambleside to Lancaster on Sunday last week and there was at several locations a bit of a feeling of "we're among the last few out until tomorrow" - this was via back roads as the main roads were shut in several places. So buses for say the Windermere branch might have been out of the question, but I could see no reason why buses couldn't have operated from Carlisle to Preston via the M6, even if slightly esoteric routes were needed in some of the towns.

There was a definite feeling of "weather gives us an official get-out so we're taking it" rather than there being a risk assessment of individual routes carried out. Notably Stagecoach were operating the 40 from Lancaster to Preston without difficulties (I looked online and services were being tracked and were near enough on time).

Big difference between taking a bus between Lancaster-Preston on low lying populated flat land, and one over Tebay and Shap, which are high and exposed and isolated. Besides the risk to the bus and passengers, there's a high probability of the motorway getting closed due to a lorry tipping over - from memory on monday one flipped between J37 and J36.....
Its also worth remembering that Lancaster, Morecambe and Fylde/Wyre exists within its own microclimate with a completely different weather pattern from the Lakes to the north.
 
Last edited:

MDB1images

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2018
Messages
654
TPE WCML on Saturday/Sunday is as follows:
Running between Edinburgh/Glasgow to Carlisle and Manchester Airport to Preston.

No TPE service Preston to Carlisle with tickets valid on Avanti West Coast between those points.
 

londonmidland

Established Member
Joined
22 Dec 2009
Messages
1,814
Location
Leicester
Are there any specific speed restrictions on the West Coast Mainline

Not sure about speed restrictions but National Rail Enquires states the following for TransPennine Express services along the WCML;

“Edinburgh / Glasgow Central – Carlisle – Preston - Manchester: Services will only run between Edinburgh / Glasgow and Carlisle, and between Preston and Manchester Piccadilly / Manchester Airport.”

“There will be no TransPennine Express service between Carlisle – Penrith – Oxenholme – Lancaster – Preston however, you may use your ticket on Avanti West Coast services between these stations.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top