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So now the government wants to see if the Chinese would be cheaper
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Aictos
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Well they do have the experience but so do the French and Germans so why are they not coming forward with offers?
Yes it’s always good to get value for market but surely this could have dealt with prior to the PM approving?
Yes it’s always good to get value for market but surely this could have dealt with prior to the PM approving?
civ-eng-jim
Member
Presumably SNCF don't actually have the in-house capability to build high-speed lines like Chinese state railways have. But Vinci, Effiage, Bouygues are all French and were awarded phase 1 contracts (as joint ventures) a couple or three years ago. Not sure what the status is of those early contract awards is though.
Financial Times suggest a letter from China Railway Construction Corporation was sent to the HS2 chief a month ago.
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Bessie
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Industry practice is to get at least 3 bids. Not sure how the Chinese will respond to the question on how they deal with nimbys.
Aictos
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I can imagine how they would respond in the People’s Republic of China but here they would have to obey the laws of the UK so wouldn’t be able to get away with it.
Slightly misleading thread title. From reading The article (and no more) the Chinese approached HS2. HS2 had a chat with them. More discussions may take place. That’s it.
Given that the main works contracts have largely been placed, albeit at zero value, it would seem to be rather foolish to reopen them. It would guarantee delay and legal action.
Given that the main works contracts have largely been placed, albeit at zero value, it would seem to be rather foolish to reopen them. It would guarantee delay and legal action.
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Send them to re education camps probably ?
hooverboy
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simple. A chinese state sposored "community cultural exchange"visit.
WatcherZero
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To visit the Uighars.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The Chinese had every opportunity to bid for contracts at the same time as everybody else.
Similarly for the rolling stock.
The Chinese angle has been an opportunity since George Osborne invited their involvement in the financing of the line (which may still happen).
Any construction contracts will be let on "UK terms", not "Chinese terms".
Similarly for the rolling stock.
The Chinese angle has been an opportunity since George Osborne invited their involvement in the financing of the line (which may still happen).
Any construction contracts will be let on "UK terms", not "Chinese terms".
Anyone could build the line faster if they used the same approach as the Chinese used on their high-speed lines. Earth-moving speed is a function of the number and size of the machines, bridges and viaducts can be built very fast and "in parallel" but tunnels are only as quick as the TBMs (though you could add more). The French got round this problem by "going over the top" which unfortunately destroys any habitats on the route. Obviously the fact that they also work 24/7/52 helps but NR does that in part anyway.
Polarbear
Established Member
I suspect this may be a bit of political engineering (no pun intended), on the part of the government. Sound-bytes to play to the gallery to male it look like options for cutting costs are being explored.
I don't see any reason why some of the experience the Chinese have couldn't be incorporated into the planning & construction of HS2, but to re-jig contracts at this late stage could well ending up costing more in legal fees & further delay the project.
I don't see any reason why some of the experience the Chinese have couldn't be incorporated into the planning & construction of HS2, but to re-jig contracts at this late stage could well ending up costing more in legal fees & further delay the project.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
I too think it is brinkmanship, to give the incumbents something to think about?
It would be a total travesty though if it ends up being built with (crappy) Chinese steel.
It would be a total travesty though if it ends up being built with (crappy) Chinese steel.
The_Train
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Not sure if I should post this as I'm sure it's highly confidential but I've come across leaked footage of these 'preliminary discussions' between our Government officials and the salesman for the Chinese Government.......
DarloRich
Veteran Member
You dont build any part of hs2 on 3 quotes!!!!!!!
Spot on. Although looking at the comments your efforts are wasted!
ExRes
Established Member
But what if it was British steel, produced in Britain and giving British people jobs? just because the Chinese have made a normal business approach it doesn't mean the product will be second rate rubbish made by slave labour in deepest China
They usually are. Sometimes I wonder why I bother!
Grumpy Git
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Hardly the attitude to promote discussion chaps. There are a lot of non railway / non business persons on here who nevertheless have a massive interest.
Apologies - I didn’t mean it like that.
Grumpy Git
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No need to apologise, I'm probably the worlds worst in my own profession?
DelW
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Please carry on, I find the great majority of your posts interesting and (as far as I can tell as an outsider) they are well-informed too.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
It's complicated by globalisation.
China is in line to buy British Steel (deal not done yet, Turkish company also waiting in the wings).
And British Steel owns the main French steel-rail-producing plant in Hayange (Lorraine).
Scunthorpe provided the raw steel for Hayange to supply rail for the latest LGVs in France.
It's impossible to be black and white about product origins.
eg class 80x diesel power packs are a "German" MTU product - but MTU is owned by Rolls Royce...
Stadler's "Swiss" trains have bodyshells made in Poland (or Hungary) and have Austrian electrics.
etc.
The Planner
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They have, you have joint ventures like Balfour Beatty Vinci, Bouygues VolkerFitzpatrick and Sir Robert McAlpine, Skanska Construction Costain and Strabag, and so on. Plenty of European partnerships there in the contracts already awarded.
leightonbd
Member
Do you mind if I ask: what is a contract at zero value? An undertaking that the work will be done by contractor X on terms to be agreed, or based on some kind of framework?
ExRes
Established Member
Quite so, what I don't like is the "(crappy) Chinese steel" remark, I reckon the Chinese can make things as well and as badly as any other industrialised nation, I bought a brand new VW which they took back because it was such a bucket of old nails, made by the Germans!!!!!!!
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
I'm sure they can, doesn't mean they will though.
Short version:
Contractors are asked to tender on rates for elements of the work expected, such that the client can then determine which is best for their package of works. For main works civils rates could be on outputs (metres cubed on earth shifted, metres cubed of concrete supplied, metres of drainage, etc etc) or inputs (daily rates for staff, plant, etc) or some combination of the two. Obviously there are also rates for ‘back office’ functions, plus overheads and profit.
The contract is let on the basis of this ‘price list’, but with zero value*; individual packages of work are then instructed as and when required, with value attached.
There are then variations regarding how the price for each work package is agreed, which is effectively around the maagement of risk and who owns it.
Clearly it’s all much more complicated than this though. If you want to read more, the various forms of contract that Network Rail use are on their website, and there is also some good stuff on the IChemE website.
* often a zero value contract does actually have some value, to pay for the basic project management etc needed to kick stuff off.
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gazthomas
Established Member
Bring it on. Looking forward to a few reports of health and safety and planning infringements but they'll be quickly forgotten. (I'm joking)
deltic
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UK Government has been talking to the Chinese about HS2 since at least 2015 when George Osbourne was touting various infrastructure projects to them. Unless the Chinese have some great new technique for building high speed lines then it is difficult to see how they will bring substantial cost or time savings. Where they have worked on lines elsewhere they have brought in their own labour which I cant see working here and speeded up the process by working 24/7 which HS2 Code of Construction Practice does not allow.
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