Issued a travel incident report - Although had a promise to pay (Northern rail)

Hadders · 15 Feb 2020

There are two issues here.

If there are ticket issuing facilities at the station where you start your journey that accept your chosen method of payment you must purchase a ticket before boarding the train. Appropriate ticketing facilities were available at your starting station because the ticket office was open but you chose not to use it because you arrived late. You committed an offence by not buying a ticket and boarding the train.

The TVM doesn't accept cash and the promise to pay feature is really something that should only be enabled when the ticket office is closed (similar to PERTIS machines back in the day). This might provide some mitigation if things were to turn ugly.

The behaviour of the revenue staff is unacceptable and this should be subject of a separate complaint to Northern.

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najaB · 15 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
The behaviour of the revenue staff is unacceptable and this should be subject of a separate complaint to Northern.

Oh, definitely. Especially since the OP has a recording so it's not just a matter of opinion.

Western Sunset · 15 Feb 2020

Was it a permit to travel or promise to pay? RDG Guidelines seem to be not very clear:

Permit to Travel These provide a means of determining where a customer started their journey when they have been unable to purchase a travel ticket and should be used when the ticket office is closed, or the ticket they require is not available, and must be exchanged for a ticket at the first opportunity or within two hours for a valid ticket. Customers must pay any difference in fare due. Passengers who are travelling with a valid permit are not liable to pay a Penalty Fare and will be accepted by any person authorised to sell tickets.

Promise to Pay Similar to a Permit to Travel, Promise to Pay coupons can be purchased as a means to show ability to purchase a valid ticket, when opportunity is not available. They are only valid in select areas of the UK and must also be used as part payment toward the correct ticket at the earliest opportunity

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

najaB said:
I believe that was the intention, I'm not so sure that is what the signs actually say.
Keep in mind that it is the passenger's responsibility to arrive at the station in time to purchase their ticket, so I wouldn't focus on this in any correspondence with the TOC.

Hi,

So on the platform that goes to Manchester picadily. There is no sign advising about needing to buy a ticket before you travel. On the other platform. That goes to Chester. There is a sign that says - "You either need to purchase a ticket, or obtain a promise to pay before travel or could be liable to a fine. Absolutely nothing about, if there is a ticket office open or not. Also on the actual staff members uniform who fined me. It said this.

I know you guys are telling me the rule is you can only obtain the promise to pay. If there is not facilities to purchase a ticket. But on the sign at the station and also on his badge it says. "Purchase a ticket, or obtain a promise to pay"

Hadders · 15 Feb 2020

It would’ve been a Promise to Pay.

The point is the OP arrived late and walked past an open ticket office. There isn’t really any mitigation for this.

Hadders · 15 Feb 2020

Sadnorthern said:
Hi,

So on the platform that goes to Manchester picadily. There is no sign advising about needing to buy a ticket before you travel. On the other platform. That goes to Chester. There is a sign that says - "You either need to purchase a ticket, or obtain a promise to pay before travel or could be liable to a fine. Absolutely nothing about, if there is a ticket office open or not. Also on the actual staff members uniform who fined me. It said this.

I know you guys are telling me the rule is you can only obtain the promise to pay. If there is not facilities to purchase a ticket. But on the sign at the station and also on his badge it says. "Purchase a ticket, or obtain a promise to pay"

This could provide some mitigation. The point is that the ticket you wanted to buy was available but you chose to walk past the place where you could buy it because you were late.

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
This could provide some mitigation. The point is that the ticket you wanted to buy was available but you chose to walk past the place where you could buy it because you were late.

Hi,

Yes it was available. However there were people buying tickets, which can be proven via CCTV. And also the picture of it saying "You either need to obtain a ticket or a promise to pay" There is no where it says i must purchase a ticket if the office is open. From all posters it would seem i have followed the policy fairly and lawfully.

najaB · 15 Feb 2020

Sadnorthern said:
I know you guys are telling me the rule is you can only obtain the promise to pay. If there is not facilities to purchase a ticket. But on the sign at the station and also on his badge it says. "Purchase a ticket, or obtain a promise to pay"

That sign appears to be referring to the situations that might result in a Penalty Fare being issued. You were not issued a Penalty Fare so I don't know how relevant it is.

Hadders · 15 Feb 2020

By all means use this as mitigation but legally you must have a ticket before you board the train of facilities to purchase the ticket you want to buy exist.

You really should plan to arrive earlier to avoid this type of situation.

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

najaB said:
That sign appears to be referring to the situations that might result in a Penalty Fare being issued. You were not issued a Penalty Fare so I don't know how relevant it is.

That is a good point. I think i can possibly use it to show, that i had fair cause to deny the penalty fine. And was then provoked and pushed into another fine. When they realised they couldn't get me for the promise to pay possibly?

Do they get comission for this.

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

Also, in regards to fining me for swearing.

Are they allowed to do that? I didn't swear at them I.E i didnt say "You are a ****ing joke" I said "This is a ****ing joke" In a flat tone.

6Gman · 15 Feb 2020

Sadnorthern said:
Also, in regards to fining me for swearing.

Are they allowed to do that? I didn't swear at them I.E i didnt say "You are a ****ing joke" I said "This is a ****ing joke" In a flat tone.

Byelaw 6 says something along the lines of not using "offensive" language on the railway.

I appreciate it's a byelaw that is broken thousands of times each day (including by staff) but the byelaw is there.

They (the railway authorities) are not allowed to fine you; they are allowed to place the matter before a court, which would have the power to fine you.

ainsworth74 · 15 Feb 2020

So have you been issued a penalty fare or have your details be taken and you've been told to expect further correspondence?

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

ainsworth74 said:
So have you been issued a penalty fare or have your details be taken and you've been told to expect further correspondence?

My personal details taken and issued a Travel Incident Report. Upon giving my details, the agent advised "Oh i think i've dealt with you before" Which is completely untrue. And i think the following proves this was a lie. To attempt to justify the fine.

He followed up by spelling my name wrong. When i advised him the correct spelling off my name. He responded with by saying - oh then thats not your name name this is your name (Pronouncing my name incorrectly) I advised him this was incorrect and my name is pronounced how i had originally said to him.

I was advised that because i had sworn and had refused to pay the Fixed penalty notice - "This is ****ing ridiculous" I was being written up a Travel incident report. And told i will receive correspondence within 30 days.

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

6Gman said:
Byelaw 6 says something along the lines of not using "offensive" language on the railway.

I appreciate it's a byelaw that is broken thousands of times each day (including by staff) but the byelaw is there.

They (the railway authorities) are not allowed to fine you; they are allowed to place the matter before a court, which would have the power to fine you.

Okay thanks for clearing this up !

Fawkes Cat · 15 Feb 2020

I think your core question is what you should do now? And if that is your question, I think the answer is - nothing.

Generally our advice is to make a note of what happened, so if something does come of the incident, you can give an accurate account of what happened. And you have already written up what happened in your original post, so you don't have to do that.

Sometimes the railway gets things so wrong that it's appropriate to complain and seek some sort of compensation. And in this case, your interview does seem to have been handled badly - making jokes between the staff at the expense of a passenger is not appropriate.

Against this, you need to recognise that you are not beyond criticism here. Trying to argue that you weren't swearing at someone but swearing about something is an extremely fine distinction and I think it would be easy for the other side to argue that the effect of either type of swearing was to intimidate and distress their staff. And most importantly, you have to accept that you did have a chance to pay at the ticket office, which you chose not to take. To succeed in arguing that you did nothing wrong because you had a Promise to Pay issued would mean everything had to fall in your favour.

So your case isn't perfect. And neither is the railway's case. So for the moment the sensible thing to do is to wait to see if the railway want to pursue this matter. With a bit of luck, they will recognise the weaknesses in their case, and not pursue it. To be certain that they won't do anything, you will have to wait a little more than six months (why? Because if the railway want to take you to court, they have to tell the court within six months of the incident - but the court then need to tell you within a few weeks. Hence six months and a bit.).

But if the railway do pursue you, you need to be prepared to argue them out of their position - to point out the weaknesses in their case. Hence why noting what happened is important, but you've already done that.

30907 · 15 Feb 2020

Sadnorthern said:
I was advised that because i had sworn and had refused to pay the Fixed penalty notice - "This is ****ing ridiculous" I was being written up a Travel incident report. And told i will receive correspondence within 30 days.

Did you in fact refuse to pay? It's not clear from your original post. And if so, why?

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

Fawkes Cat said:
I think your core question is what you should do now? And if that is your question, I think the answer is - nothing.

Generally our advice is to make a note of what happened, so if something does come of the incident, you can give an accurate account of what happened. And you have already written up what happened in your original post, so you don't have to do that.

Sometimes the railway gets things so wrong that it's appropriate to complain and seek some sort of compensation. And in this case, your interview does seem to have been handled badly - making jokes between the staff at the expense of a passenger is not appropriate.

Against this, you need to recognise that you are not beyond criticism here. Trying to argue that you weren't swearing at someone but swearing about something is an extremely fine distinction and I think it would be easy for the other side to argue that the effect of either type of swearing was to intimidate and distress their staff. And most importantly, you have to accept that you did have a chance to pay at the ticket office, which you chose not to take. To succeed in arguing that you did nothing wrong because you had a Promise to Pay issued would mean everything had to fall in your favour.

So your case isn't perfect. And neither is the railway's case. So for the moment the sensible thing to do is to wait to see if the railway want to pursue this matter. With a bit of luck, they will recognise the weaknesses in their case, and not pursue it. To be certain that they won't do anything, you will have to wait a little more than six months (why? Because if the railway want to take you to court, they have to tell the court within six months of the incident - but the court then need to tell you within a few weeks. Hence six months and a bit.).

But if the railway do pursue you, you need to be prepared to argue them out of their position - to point out the weaknesses in their case. Hence why noting what happened is important, but you've already done that.

Thank you for you're detailed reply. This has cleared a lot up. And will help going forward. I will accept i am not without fault in this situation.

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

30907 said:
Did you in fact refuse to pay? It's not clear from your original post. And if so, why?

I did not refuse to pay for a ticket. I approached the Agents with my promise to pay and cash in hand. (Provable by video)

I refused to pay the penalty fare fix notice of £20. And explained i was more than willing to pay for a ticket.

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

Something else to add that may be important i should of said from the start -

This may count against me.

This did not result in me paying for a ticket. As i was over the 30 minutes late. And very upset. I should of gone right > to the ticket office. But i went Left, the quickest route to work.

I realise now, i should of after this ordeal and being issue the fine. Still of gone and bought the ticket.

gray1404 · 15 Feb 2020

My take on this is that the OP approached the ticket machine at their starting station and attempted to buy a ticket using their chosen payment method of cash. In order to obtain a promise to pay then there are a number of screens the OP will have had to work their way through. They would have got to a point on the machiene where they would have selected their required ticket and opted to pay cash. At that point the ticket machine will have informed them to use the promise to pay to purchase their ticket en-route. The OP therefore complied with this and, as the guard on their train did not come through to conduct a ticket check, they didn't have a opportunity to purchase until they got off the train.

The onus is on Northern to ensure their ticket machines do not offer P2P tickets if the ticket office is open. That is not the passengers problem. Upon getting the P2P to OP had written authority to start their journey and have 4 hours to purchase their ticket. Once Northern have issued such a notice they cannot back track on it. Therefore, their staff (or contractors) were wrong to not honor the P2P notice on arrival. If the P2P had been issued incorrectly, because there was an open ticket office, that is an internal issue for Northern to sort out.

As the OP was able to obtain a P2P before they boarded the train, the issue of them arriving at the station however many minutes before the train was due is irreverent. It would be wrong for this to be used against the OP. The point is they had authority to travel The point about there only being one train per hour is also irreverent regardless. From the account given, Northern's staff then incorrectly attempted to issue a Penalty Fare incorrectly. This is because the OP had authority to travel. Then they attempted to extract personal details from them which they had no basis for taking. Rather they should either have told him a ticket in exchange for the P2P or directed him to the ticket office at the station to purchase the ticket required.

It also sounds like the OP was detained by their staff. Depending on how this was conducted and what the video footage shows, this could amount to unlawful detention. The OP says that they were surrounded by several members of staff and they were provoked. Some swear words may have been used but it is the context in which they were used that needs to be considered. Not the words alone. It could be that the OP was provoked, under a situation duress (as they were being detained, trying to have their details extracted from them unlawfully and provoked - which in it's self is an offence). It sounds like the staff concerned may have broken some railway bylaws too. Yes, those bylaws don't just apply to passengers, it is anyone on the railway.

6Gman · 15 Feb 2020

Sadnorthern said:
My personal details taken and issued a Travel Incident Report. Upon giving my details, the agent advised "Oh i think i've dealt with you before" Which is completely untrue. And i think the following proves this was a lie. To attempt to justify the fine.

He followed up by spelling my name wrong. When i advised him the correct spelling off my name. He responded with by saying - oh then thats not your name name this is your name (Pronouncing my name incorrectly) I advised him this was incorrect and my name is pronounced how i had originally said to him.

I was advised that because i had sworn and had refused to pay the Fixed penalty notice - "This is ****ing ridiculous" I was being written up a Travel incident report. And told i will receive correspondence within 30 days.

I think it might be helpful to point out that nobody has been "fined".

You were offered the opportunity to pay a penalty fare.

You declined to do so and then swore.

A TIR has been prepared and you will receive a letter about it in due course. Not sure how much more can be usefully discussed until you get that letter and find out how they are going to progress the matter.

ainsworth74 · 15 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
My take on this is that the OP approached the ticket machine at their starting station and attempted to buy a ticket using their chosen payment method of cash. In order to obtain a promise to pay then there are a number of screens the OP will have had to work their way through. They would have got to a point on the machiene where they would have selected their required ticket and opted to pay cash. At that point the ticket machine will have informed them to use the promise to pay to purchase their ticket en-route. The OP therefore complied with this and, as the guard on their train did not come through to conduct a ticket check, they didn't have a opportunity to purchase until they got off the train.

The onus is on Northern to ensure their ticket machines do not offer P2P tickets if the ticket office is open. That is not the passengers problem. Upon getting the P2P to OP had written authority to start their journey and have 4 hours to purchase their ticket. Once Northern have issued such a notice they cannot back track on it. Therefore, their staff (or contractors) were wrong to not honor the P2P notice on arrival. If the P2P had been issued incorrectly, because there was an open ticket office, that is an internal issue for Northern to sort out.

As the OP was able to obtain a P2P before they boarded the train, the issue of them arriving at the station however many minutes before the train was due is irreverent. It would be wrong for this to be used against the OP. The point is they had authority to travel The point about there only being one train per hour is also irreverent regardless. From the account given, Northern's staff then incorrectly attempted to issue a Penalty Fare incorrectly. This is because the OP had authority to travel. Then they attempted to extract personal details from them which they had no basis for taking. Rather they should either have told him a ticket in exchange for the P2P or directed him to the ticket office at the station to purchase the ticket required.

That's one interpretation of what the position might be. Mine is that, ethical or otherwise, a Byelaw 18 offence could easily be shown to have taken place and a conviction secured on that basis.

There was an open ticket office and they did not use it. Seems like a slam dunk to me.

Darandio · 15 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
My take on this is that the OP approached the ticket machine at their starting station and attempted to buy a ticket using their chosen payment method of cash. In order to obtain a promise to pay then there are a number of screens the OP will have had to work their way through. They would have got to a point on the machiene where they would have selected their required ticket and opted to pay cash. At that point the ticket machine will have informed them to use the promise to pay to purchase their ticket en-route. The OP therefore complied with this and, as the guard on their train did not come through to conduct a ticket check, they didn't have a opportunity to purchase until they got off the train.

The onus is on Northern to ensure their ticket machines do not offer P2P tickets if the ticket office is open. That is not the passengers problem. Upon getting the P2P to OP had written authority to start their journey and have 4 hours to purchase their ticket. Once Northern have issued such a notice they cannot back track on it. Therefore, their staff (or contractors) were wrong to not honor the P2P notice on arrival. If the P2P had been issued incorrectly, because there was an open ticket office, that is an internal issue for Northern to sort out.

As the OP was able to obtain a P2P before they boarded the train, the issue of them arriving at the station however many minutes before the train was due is irreverent. It would be wrong for this to be used against the OP. The point is they had authority to travel The point about there only being one train per hour is also irreverent regardless. From the account given, Northern's staff then incorrectly attempted to issue a Penalty Fare incorrectly. This is because the OP had authority to travel. Then they attempted to extract personal details from them which they had no basis for taking. Rather they should either have told him a ticket in exchange for the P2P or directed him to the ticket office at the station to purchase the ticket required.

It also sounds like the OP was detained by their staff. Depending on how this was conducted and what the video footage shows, this could amount to unlawful detention. The OP says that they were surrounded by several members of staff and they were provoked. Some swear words may have been used but it is the context in which they were used that needs to be considered. Not the words alone. It could be that the OP was provoked, under a situation duress (as they were being detained, trying to have their details extracted from them unlawfully and provoked - which in it's self is an offence). It sounds like the staff concerned may have broken some railway bylaws too. Yes, those bylaws don't just apply to passengers, it is anyone on the railway.

It's very easy to arrive at that take if you conveniently omit many of the key details that the OP has already posted throughout the thread.

6Gman · 15 Feb 2020

ainsworth74 said:
That's one interpretation of what the position might be. Mine is that, ethical or otherwise, a Byelaw 18 offence could easily be shown to have taken place and a conviction secured on that basis.

There was an open ticket office and they did not use it. Seems like a slam dunk to me.

That was my initial take, but if there was a poster at the originating station saying - in effect - "you must have a ticket or PtP to travel" [my emphasis] then that might offer a potential defence.

(Which takes priority - the Conditions of Travel on a website somewhere, or a poster on the station?)

Of course, this does all depend on how far the OP is willing to take the matter. Taking it all the way to Court could result in anything from being totally cleared to a conviction with costs.

Sadnorthern · 15 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
My take on this is that the OP approached the ticket machine at their starting station and attempted to buy a ticket using their chosen payment method of cash. In order to obtain a promise to pay then there are a number of screens the OP will have had to work their way through. They would have got to a point on the machiene where they would have selected their required ticket and opted to pay cash. At that point the ticket machine will have informed them to use the promise to pay to purchase their ticket en-route. The OP therefore complied with this and, as the guard on their train did not come through to conduct a ticket check, they didn't have a opportunity to purchase until they got off the train.

The onus is on Northern to ensure their ticket machines do not offer P2P tickets if the ticket office is open. That is not the passengers problem. Upon getting the P2P to OP had written authority to start their journey and have 4 hours to purchase their ticket. Once Northern have issued such a notice they cannot back track on it. Therefore, their staff (or contractors) were wrong to not honor the P2P notice on arrival. If the P2P had been issued incorrectly, because there was an open ticket office, that is an internal issue for Northern to sort out.

As the OP was able to obtain a P2P before they boarded the train, the issue of them arriving at the station however many minutes before the train was due is irreverent. It would be wrong for this to be used against the OP. The point is they had authority to travel The point about there only being one train per hour is also irreverent regardless. From the account given, Northern's staff then incorrectly attempted to issue a Penalty Fare incorrectly. This is because the OP had authority to travel. Then they attempted to extract personal details from them which they had no basis for taking. Rather they should either have told him a ticket in exchange for the P2P or directed him to the ticket office at the station to purchase the ticket required.

It also sounds like the OP was detained by their staff. Depending on how this was conducted and what the video footage shows, this could amount to unlawful detention. The OP says that they were surrounded by several members of staff and they were provoked. Some swear words may have been used but it is the context in which they were used that needs to be considered. Not the words alone. It could be that the OP was provoked, under a situation duress (as they were being detained, trying to have their details extracted from them unlawfully and provoked - which in it's self is an offence). It sounds like the staff concerned may have broken some railway bylaws too. Yes, those bylaws don't just apply to passengers, it is anyone on the railway.

Thank you ! I find it hard to articulate what i mean. Will defiantly screenshot this.

cuccir · 15 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
The onus is on Northern to ensure their ticket machines do not offer P2P tickets if the ticket office is open. That is not the passengers problem. Upon getting the P2P to OP had written authority to start their journey and have 4 hours to purchase their ticket. Once Northern have issued such a notice they cannot back track on it. Therefore, their staff (or contractors) were wrong to not honor the P2P notice on arrival. If the P2P had been issued incorrectly, because there was an open ticket office, that is an internal issue for Northern to sort out.

As the OP was able to obtain a P2P before they boarded the train, the issue of them arriving at the station however many minutes before the train was due is irreverent. It would be wrong for this to be used against the OP. The point is they had authority to travel

My take would be that if you wanted to challenge any attempted prosecution, this would have to be the basis. Ignore anything else that you feel is unfair (promises of more services etc). Carefully check how everything is signed at your boarding station. It seems like you may have already done this, but I would photograph all signage you pass, and the TVM wording: is there anything which tells you that a P2P is only an option if the ticket office is not open?

Let's be clear what this defence would be doing. Under law, you can be guilty of 'fare evasion' (actually: breaking byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws) by boarding a train without a valid ticket. It does not matter about your intention. However, byelaw 18 has three exceptions:

there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey or

there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket or

an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

You would be suggesting that instructions with regards to the Promise to Pay ticket means that in your case, the second of these applies. I would not want to promise you here that it would work: but I can see how it might.

As has been noted, you'll probably be written to asking for your side of the story. I would suggest focusing only on this issue, that is, focus on establishing what happened in a way which provides evidence for this defence, and not any other matters.

ainsworth74 · 15 Feb 2020

6Gman said:
That was my initial take, but if there was a poster at the originating station saying - in effect - "you must have a ticket or PtP to travel" [my emphasis] then that might offer a potential defence.

cuccir said:
You would be suggesting that instructions with regards to the Promise to Pay ticket means that in your case, the second of these applies. I would not want to promise you here that it would work: but I can see how it might.

Hmm on reflection that might work. But it would certainly be relatively high stakes I think.

30907 · 15 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
My take on this is that the OP approached the ticket machine at their starting station and attempted to buy a ticket using their chosen payment method of cash. In order to obtain a promise to pay then there are a number of screens the OP will have had to work their way through. They would have got to a point on the machiene where they would have selected their required ticket and opted to pay cash. At that point the ticket machine will have informed them to use the promise to pay to purchase their ticket en-route.

That is not what the OP said, nor does it match the Northern TVMs about whose quirks much has been posted on these Forums.
The Promise to Pay button is on the home screen next to the Buy Ticket button. It doesn't only appear when you reach the Pay Now screen (though I presume it can be reached that way?).

some bloke · 15 Feb 2020

cuccir said:
byelaw 18 has three exceptions

Or maybe the promise is a valid ticket, so the byelaw doesn't apply anyway.

Northern Railway said:
A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

That page on penalty fares doesn't mention conductors at all.

Nor do these make clear that the OP was liable for a Penalty Fare:

Northern Railway said:
If I do not buy a ticket before travelling, is it an automatic Penalty Fare?

You are responsible for ensuring that you purchase a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay notice that is valid for your entire journey before travelling, otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare.

Northern Railway said:
Can I pay at my destination if I am in a rush?
If you board a train without a valid ticket or Promise to Pay notice you may have to pay a Penalty Fare. If it is shown that your intention was to avoid your fare, then you are breaking the criminal law and you may be liable for prosecution.

Northern Railway said:
"REMEMBER

Where the facility to do so has been provided, you must purchase a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay notice before you travel."

Sadnorthern said:
This did not result in me paying for a ticket.

My understanding is that won't count against you, because the company will consider the matter is being dealt with via the irregularity report.

For future reference, if something like this happens again you may well be better off paying a penalty fare, then appealing it. The regulations allow part payment at the time. After an appeal decision, the company is barred from prosecuting for the usual offences.

Issued a travel incident report - Although had a promise to pay (Northern rail)

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