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So now the government wants to see if the Chinese would be cheaper

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Baxenden Bank

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If you look at the new lines built in Africa (Kenya: Mombassa to Nairobi and now beyond to Suswa, Ehthiopia/Djibouti: Addis Ababa to Djibouti port), the Chinese certainly get on with the job.

The lines are designed/built to Chinese standards though, so any cost savings achieved through using standard Chinese designs may not be achieved in a UK setting on a line already designed to UK standards. Unless the approved route is kept but the design altered to Chinese standards. The Chinese infrastructure is rather utilitarian, albeit with grand station designs.

Large amounts of imported (Chinese) labour is used. Again apparent cost savings may not be realised for HS2 if existing contractors, and our way of subbing everything, is adopted.

I suspect the Chinese way of getting on with the job would put many noses out of joint, as referred to above, especially those groups used to being consulted about the colour and timing of installation of every screw.

The nature of the routes in Africa differs greatly from HS2 - the density of population/properties near the line, their legal rights, the protection afforded to natural features, the need to accommodate so much adjacent infrastructure/activity without interruption.

I suspect HS2 could indeed be built much quicker and at much lower cost, but there would be a high societal price to pay for those savings.
 
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2L70

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Send them to re education camps probably ?

Already one of them in Huddersfield so that’s straightforward enough.

Considering how much this country is propped up by Chinese money a concession has been made?
 

markymark2000

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How will the Chinese make HS2 so much cheaper? The materials are still all needed (and when you add on any shipping fees and the workers would be needed to be paid UK minimum wages. The System would have to be built somewhat to UK standards as the trains will run between HS2 and the mainline so all systems have to be compatible so it can't be made that much cheaper surely.

The Hawawi thing was different as that was phones which could be used for government intelligence. Not a lot from HS2 could really be of use to the Chinese Govt?
 

wireforever

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They might get a BOGOF do HS2 and the Boris bridge from Scotland to N.Ireland on second thoughts let them quote for the Boris bridge only or let them do the Northern Powerhouse Trans Pennine upgrade
 

class26

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How will the Chinese make HS2 so much cheaper? The materials are still all needed (and when you add on any shipping fees and the workers would be needed to be paid UK minimum wages. The System would have to be built somewhat to UK standards as the trains will run between HS2 and the mainline so all systems have to be compatible so it can't be made that much cheaper surely.

The Hawawi thing was different as that was phones which could be used for government intelligence. Not a lot from HS2 could really be of use to the Chinese Govt?

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duffield

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How will the Chinese make HS2 so much cheaper? The materials are still all needed (and when you add on any shipping fees and the workers would be needed to be paid UK minimum wages. The System would have to be built somewhat to UK standards as the trains will run between HS2 and the mainline so all systems have to be compatible so it can't be made that much cheaper surely.

The Hawawi thing was different as that was phones which could be used for government intelligence. Not a lot from HS2 could really be of use to the Chinese Govt?

They might do HS2 at cost (or maybe even a loss) to get into the European market (maybe in exchange for a cut of future revenues or even a ownership stake). The Chinese government tends to think long-term about such things.
 

jon0844

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They might do HS2 at cost (or maybe even a loss) to get into the European market (maybe in exchange for a cut of future revenues or even a ownership stake). The Chinese government tends to think long-term about such things.

Maybe they'll help finance it too. Their finance arrangements can be very beneficial (to them). As we're looking for trade deals, I can see us bending over to give them what they want in return for some quick wins.
 

Edders23

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I think the chinese offer is genuine BUT I doubt it will be seriously considered by the UK government

That said I am certain savings could be made as the chinese workforce and machinery would cost considerably less. The rails would all be manufactured in china plus probably the signalling equipment and of course the Chinese would probably expect to win the contract to build the trains

But would the quality of workmanship be as good or would there be ongoing remedial work for years after it opens
 

londonteacher

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Wouldn't it be funny if the first major thing we do after Brexit is bring thousands of Chinese workers to the UK to work on HS2? All those people who voted to leave because of people 'taking our jobs'. It really would be hilarious!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Wouldn't it be funny if the first major thing we do after Brexit is bring thousands of Chinese workers to the UK to work on HS2? All those people who voted to leave because of people 'taking our jobs'. It really would be hilarious!

But this is the kind of deal we can do outside the EU, instead of competing for contracts on the EU's level playing field.
There would need to be an equivalent benefit in the other direction (access to China's services sector for instance).
The government will be keen to explore new deals.
I'm not saying it would be a good thing, and it's probably too late for the HS2 contracting process anyway, unless we throw it all up in the air.
 

ExRes

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Wouldn't it be funny if the first major thing we do after Brexit is bring thousands of Chinese workers to the UK to work on HS2? All those people who voted to leave because of people 'taking our jobs'. It really would be hilarious!

And why exactly would we 'bring thousands of Chinese workers to the UK to work on HS2"?
 

Senex

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If the Chinese can build the complete project by the middle of this decade (and for much less money), wouldn't we be daft not to take them up on it? After all, that would bring all the benefits for the north of England so loudly trumpeted by the proponents of HS2 about some 15 years earlier than they will have to wait if it runs according to the present timetable. And it would be very visibly well on the way by an election in 2024, and thus a great achievement for the Tories to boast about. There's also a potentially massive saving on borrowing, which would mean the government could borrow for other things. So does the government really want to get this thing built and bring benefits to the north of England, or is it content to let it drift on over 20 years, with early benefits coming only for London and Birmingham?
 

jon0844

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Wouldn't it be funny if the first major thing we do after Brexit is bring thousands of Chinese workers to the UK to work on HS2? All those people who voted to leave because of people 'taking our jobs'. It really would be hilarious!

I think it was said that we'd likely have to allow more immigration from the likes of India, China, the Middle East in return for favourable terms on any trade deal.

Frankly, I can't wait for some leavers to discover this - like 'Colin' found about long queues at Schipol airport this week..
 

Meole

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If the Chinese can build the complete project by the middle of this decade (and for much less money), wouldn't we be daft not to take them up on it? After all, that would bring all the benefits for the north of England so loudly trumpeted by the proponents of HS2 about some 15 years earlier than they will have to wait if it runs according to the present timetable. And it would be very visibly well on the way by an election in 2024, and thus a great achievement for the Tories to boast about. There's also a potentially massive saving on borrowing, which would mean the government could borrow for other things. So does the government really want to get this thing built and bring benefits to the north of England, or is it content to let it drift on over 20 years, with early benefits coming only for London and Birmingham?
British construction conglomerates would not take kindly to the political party they fund by passing their business interests.
 

Grumpy Git

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Brexit was Cummings masterplan to get Johnson the top job, end of.
British construction conglomerates would not take kindly to the political party they fund by passing their business interests.

Be careful, I was castigated for making such "outrageous" comments previously.
 

deltic

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British construction conglomerates would not take kindly to the political party they fund by passing their business interests.
As already stated up thread lots of non-UK firms are involved in the construction of HS2.
 

deltic

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If the Chinese can build the complete project by the middle of this decade (and for much less money), wouldn't we be daft not to take them up on it? After all, that would bring all the benefits for the north of England so loudly trumpeted by the proponents of HS2 about some 15 years earlier than they will have to wait if it runs according to the present timetable. And it would be very visibly well on the way by an election in 2024, and thus a great achievement for the Tories to boast about. There's also a potentially massive saving on borrowing, which would mean the government could borrow for other things. So does the government really want to get this thing built and bring benefits to the north of England, or is it content to let it drift on over 20 years, with early benefits coming only for London and Birmingham?
The Chinese are unlikely to be able to build quicker or cheaper unless they are allowed to bypass lots of existing regulations and commitments eg removal on the constraints on working 24/7 and bring in their own labour
 

Edders23

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Any project on this scale would be beyond the abilities of a single company or even all the uk companies in the sector combined which is why many non uk companies are involved

The chinese are already involved in the Hinkley Point project I believe so probably see the Uk as a customer with a lot of spending power and therefore an outlet for their industrial capacity which is not performing or expanding as much as they would like
 

Edders23

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The Chinese are unlikely to be able to build quicker or cheaper unless they are allowed to bypass lots of existing regulations and commitments eg removal on the constraints on working 24/7 and bring in their own labour

I think their rationale is that they have the teams and equipment which has been building their own high speed routes that are up to speed. Relocating them to the uk would take a few months but they have more EXPERIENCE at this than most of the contractors currently available and that is where they would save time as they don't need to learn the job
 

underbank

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Given that contracts etc for HS2 are already granted, how about giving the Chinese the construction jobs for the Leeds<>Liverpool to bring it forward a decade or so.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Given that contracts etc for HS2 are already granted, how about giving the Chinese the construction jobs for the Leeds<>Liverpool to bring it forward a decade or so.
It's the design and planning iterations that take the time, plus the subsequent consultations and public enquiries.
There's no way the Chinese could circumvent all that under UK legislation.
 

158756

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It's the design and planning iterations that take the time, plus the subsequent consultations and public enquiries.
There's no way the Chinese could circumvent all that under UK legislation.

That's certainly part of it, but as it currently stands the actual construction of HS2 is due to take over 20 years. There might be more regulations here but that seems ridiculous when the Chinese would do it in 5. Is it going to be like the smart motorway roadworks where you drive through twenty miles and count the workforce on one hand?
 

Aictos

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Could get the Chinese to build HS from Crewe to Scotland?
 

londonteacher

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Boohoo, Brexit whinge etc...
If that was aimed at me, I can assure you it really does not bother me we have left the EU now.

On another note, if China can build HS2 for cheaper and quicker then surely we would be stupid to not go for it. We could get phase two complete in the time predicted for phase 1!
 
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