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CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.
- Thread starter hexagon789
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hexagon789
Veteran Member
Pretty much, I imagine more toilets could be provided if specced and the seats of course could've been something else.
The drive-train itself seems fairly sound.
I think Ian Walmsley did say that the 220 bogies were better than other inside-framed ones in one of his 'Pan-Up' columns.
Goldfish62
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He did indeed, although I don't think anyone would disagree that Voyagers give a worst ride than Turbostars, which have outside-frame bogies.
Aventra ride quality is worse than that of Electrostars. Similarly with Desiro City v Desiro UK. The common denominator is inside frame bogies.
Controversy regarding the new units, particularly toilet provision, is covered on page 84 of Modern Railways (May issue). I can't find it on their website yet so I've typed it out below. One toilet to 144 seats (IIRC) seems pretty low for 5 hour journeys...
Concern about “197” interior spec
Rail passenger groups have questioned the appropriaetness of toilets and seating for long journeys on Transport for Wales' new Class 197 DMUs.
TfW has ordered 77 of the CAF Civity DMUs for service entry in 2022 and 2023. There will be one toilet on each of the 51 two-car sets, which replace Class 158 and Class 175 units with two toilets per two-car set.
The Shrewsbury Aberystywth Rail Passengers' Association (SARPA) says the Rail Delivery Group's minimum requirements are that no inter-urban DMUs should have fewer than two toilets, and that there should be at least one toilet per 85 seats. The 21 Class 197s with European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) for Cambrian services will be two-car units.
In a letter to Assembly Members in March, SARPA chair Jeff Smith said some trips fromt he West Midlands to Cambrian stations could take about five hours. Railfuture Wales said one toilet per unit was not suitable for the nature of the routes the units will operate, including Manchester to Milford Haven.
A TfW spokesman said the single toilet in two-car units was in line with toilet provision on new fleets being delivered to other operators.
'The toilets will be capable of two full days' operation in terms of water and retention tank capacity' he said. 'Routine servicing of the toilet tanks will be scheduled around the diagrams the units are operating to ensure this. The two car 197s will often run with a second unit on long-distance services, providing two toilets for a four-carriage train.'
TfW has intervened, with an additional £1.9 million, to prevent the Class 197s receiving the same type of seat as Thameslink Class 700 units ('Moving Wheels', February issue). However, Railfuture Wales and SARPA have concerns the seat chosen by TfW, without seeking any passenger feedback, may be unsuitable for long journeys.
TfW said it was funding an upgrade to the Fainsa Sophia seat, 'the highest option available'/ The spokesman said: 'This seat is used in a large number of UK long-distance fleets and is considered to offer good levels of comfort for long-distance operations.'
SARPA says even with the planned service frequency improvements the Class 197s represent significantly less than TfW;s promised 65% increase in capacity 'across our entire network'.
SARPA has asked for ERTMS on more Class 197s, including some three0car units. This would provide a 'cushion' for times of low availability of the usual Cambrian fleet, it argues.
Asked about seats aligning with windows, the TfW spokesman responded: 'Carriages will be bright, airy with open window space. We have carefully chosen a layout to ensure that customers have a comfortable journey and, where possible, this includes aligning seats with windows so that customers can enjoy the beautiful countryside.
Concern about “197” interior spec
Rail passenger groups have questioned the appropriaetness of toilets and seating for long journeys on Transport for Wales' new Class 197 DMUs.
TfW has ordered 77 of the CAF Civity DMUs for service entry in 2022 and 2023. There will be one toilet on each of the 51 two-car sets, which replace Class 158 and Class 175 units with two toilets per two-car set.
The Shrewsbury Aberystywth Rail Passengers' Association (SARPA) says the Rail Delivery Group's minimum requirements are that no inter-urban DMUs should have fewer than two toilets, and that there should be at least one toilet per 85 seats. The 21 Class 197s with European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) for Cambrian services will be two-car units.
In a letter to Assembly Members in March, SARPA chair Jeff Smith said some trips fromt he West Midlands to Cambrian stations could take about five hours. Railfuture Wales said one toilet per unit was not suitable for the nature of the routes the units will operate, including Manchester to Milford Haven.
A TfW spokesman said the single toilet in two-car units was in line with toilet provision on new fleets being delivered to other operators.
'The toilets will be capable of two full days' operation in terms of water and retention tank capacity' he said. 'Routine servicing of the toilet tanks will be scheduled around the diagrams the units are operating to ensure this. The two car 197s will often run with a second unit on long-distance services, providing two toilets for a four-carriage train.'
TfW has intervened, with an additional £1.9 million, to prevent the Class 197s receiving the same type of seat as Thameslink Class 700 units ('Moving Wheels', February issue). However, Railfuture Wales and SARPA have concerns the seat chosen by TfW, without seeking any passenger feedback, may be unsuitable for long journeys.
TfW said it was funding an upgrade to the Fainsa Sophia seat, 'the highest option available'/ The spokesman said: 'This seat is used in a large number of UK long-distance fleets and is considered to offer good levels of comfort for long-distance operations.'
SARPA says even with the planned service frequency improvements the Class 197s represent significantly less than TfW;s promised 65% increase in capacity 'across our entire network'.
SARPA has asked for ERTMS on more Class 197s, including some three0car units. This would provide a 'cushion' for times of low availability of the usual Cambrian fleet, it argues.
Asked about seats aligning with windows, the TfW spokesman responded: 'Carriages will be bright, airy with open window space. We have carefully chosen a layout to ensure that customers have a comfortable journey and, where possible, this includes aligning seats with windows so that customers can enjoy the beautiful countryside.
Surely the Fisa Lean specified by WMR in their civitys and in GAs Flirts would be a better option than the known to be sophias in terms of comfort?
116 seats (excluding tip-ups) on a 2-car 197, 188 on a 3-car (which would have 2 toilets, so 94 seats per toilet). Neither meet the long-distance spec in the Rail Delivery Group KTR.
I think the news of the change from Comrail to Sophia was first broken (without actually naming the seat) in this earlier article (Wales Online). In that one, the quote from TfW was a bit different
'through our train supplier' I think is the key bit. It's not clear whether they mean CAF or the ROSCO, but maybe one or other of those had a contract with Fainsa they didn't feel they could get out of.
A version of the Fainsa Sophia is the seating fitted to the IEPs. Fainsa is a Spanish company so probably favoured by CAF
Indeed. I particularly liked the part where Transport for Wales threatened the franchisee with legal action because the seats that are in Northern's version of the train are "unsuitable and uncomfortable" for longer journeys.
Of course, as everyone knows, in Wales, a three hour journey needs a more comfortable seat than a three hour journey in Northern England. Just as you only need one toilet in a three car train making such journeys.
What would they sue them for anyway? Is an 'uncomfortable' seat breaking the franchise agreement?
Well that would have been the theoretical question for the Court wouldn't it. Transport for Wales clearly thought so.
Of course, agreement was reached to use the more expensive seating. Rather than the "uncomfortable" cheaper option Northern have.
Still suprised they went with sophias and not the more popular with the public lean, lean is available in civitys and if they are spending the money on upgrading they may as well spend it on upgrading to the most popular.
Mitchell Hurd
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Just out of curiosity, why have TfW chosen commuter-type trains for routes that have been Class 175-worked (in other words worked by end-door trains) for over 10 years?
I'm guessing this improves punctuality - as long as the journey experience is great then I'm all for 197's. Just curious.
I'm guessing this improves punctuality - as long as the journey experience is great then I'm all for 197's. Just curious.
I really really like 195s for a long journey, so I expect it will be more of the same, just with less comfortable seats.
Mitchell Hurd
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Oh absolutely I like 195's too
!I don't know why I'm asking about commuter-style trains replacing InterCity-type trains as Class 170's are replacing 156's and 158's at EMR.
One great feature the 197's are presumably table seats at the cab ends of the train.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Well, quite. The FISA LEAN is very similar to the Grammer E3000 Desiro seat, and is very comfortable with a decent headrest and no silly metal bar in the way of your backside. The Fainsa Sophia...well, you know what I think of that. If it's more expensive than the FISA LEAN, somebody's been had.
Though with the contoured base I actually like the 195 seats, they are actually quite a long way up my "good list".
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Oh absolutely I like 195's too
I don't know why I'm asking about commuter-style trains replacing InterCity-type trains as Class 170's are replacing 156's and 158's at EMR.
One great feature the 197's are presumably table seats at the cab ends of the train.
Really, the end doors are not very suitable for the Welsh services because they are really regional expresses and not ICs - they are the sort of services the Class 170 is made for, it just happens that they're ordering new kit that happens to look very much like a Class 170 with a bottle of Estrella Damm in its hand. They cause long dwell times at stations etc. The Welsh services that really are IC are getting loco hauled Mk4s.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
I can see the 'two-day' capacity becoming an excuse to empty the tanks less frequently leading to more issues
Metal_gee_man
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Can you imagine Football/Rugby/Event days in Cardiff, loads of pissed up punters drinking on the train, on the way to the stadium, in the stadium & around the stadium on event days all needing a pee on a train with one toilet, that tank will be full to bursting before it hits Swansea or (insert Welsh town/village) up in the valleys.
I think you might want to remove the carpets just in case
fgwrich
Established Member
The bit I like from the quoted article was this line.
Considered by whom exactly?
Considered by whom exactly?
I imagine that it's almost entirely down to the lower prices they happened to be able to offer. It seems very unlikely indeed they will be as suitable as from-new 175s.
Ironically, given the very thin levels of traffic between Cardiff and towns in North Wales...
Mitchell Hurd
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As regards capacity, I'm guessing a 3-car 175 seats around 200. If that's true then a 4-car 197 won't have that much more seats, although an extra 35 ish seats is still an ok increase.
Turning my comments to positive rather than show concerns, the 197's do look very nice. Plus I believe the engines are all 523hp MTU like the 195's and 196's will be so that means great acceleration.
Turning my comments to positive rather than show concerns, the 197's do look very nice. Plus I believe the engines are all 523hp MTU like the 195's and 196's will be so that means great acceleration.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They seem to be rather Marmite. There's as much "this is wonderful" about IET seats on GWR, TPE and LNER's Twitter as there is "this is awful".
To me, I don't mind hard seats at all and they would be great apart from two things - the headrest is a bit low (but legroom so far generally good enough to slouch, so this isn't a killer) and the "metal bar" that I feel under my thighs. I suspect the latter is only perceptible if you are heavy enough to squash the foam down completely. So there may well be a weight divide here - it might be that if you're say 80kg you'll love them, but if you're 130kg (hello!
) you won't.craigybagel
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In some cases the 175s are already tanked only every 2 days. The units that stable at Carmarthen & Shrewsbury can't get tanked. Lately units have been stabled at Crewe as well and although the depot there does have CET emptying facilities, I'm not 100% sure TfW uses them.
Much more suitable for most of the services these units will be working. It will be a big improvement on dwell times, especially in the peaks. Remember, these units aren't just working rural Welsh services, they will work busy commuter services out of Manchester, Birmingham and of course Cardiff. As great as the 175s are (both to travel on and for us staff to work on) they do struggle to cope with big crowds. Bombardier proved years ago you can make comfortable medium - long distance trains with doors at ⅓ ⅔ with the 170s, and I see no reason why these will be any different.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A big difference they will make is with luggage, of which there's plenty on Welsh services due to the holiday demand (which if international travel becomes difficult for a prolonged period will only increase). The Class 175 has overheads that are so tiny you can barely put your coat in them - the smallest I can think of on the network. The Civity has massive racks - they will take a 100+ litre rucksack or a full size trolley case with ease (I've put both of those things in them). If there are floor-level racks as well this will make a massive difference.
43096
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DfT apparatchiks, Hitachi and FirstGroup.The bit I like from the quoted article was this line.
Considered by whom exactly?
Mitchell Hurd
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That's very true - on the 197's the doors are wider than the 175'a are which certainly means better punctuality. Also I feel that a wheelchair can easily fit through one of these doors (on commuter-style trains) than InterCity ones. Plus, the wheelchair space is literally next to the door basically.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There's a great case for moving away from end doors even for IC - it's amazing how much easier it is to board and move through a train with doors at thirds. The Class 444 for example isn't fully end doored, some are nearer thirds, and that works fine. The smaller saloon also increases privacy.
Don't forget that early Mk1s and Mk2s had doors in the centre with two saloons. Though BR turned them into luggage racks at some point.
Mitchell Hurd
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I didn't know BR did that. There'll be more room to stand on a 197 than in a vestibule of a packed 175 definitely if I ever have to stand from station to station!