CAF rolling stock any issues with Quality?

NSW Trainlink has ordered CAF branded bi modal rollingstock to replace there entire existing fleet. Despite 90% of the lines they operate on be non electrified and very unlikely to ever be.

I have read that the UK has a number of trains operating that were produced by CAF.

What I would like to know has there been any major issues or design faults affecting them?

Things such as service reliability ie do they break down often?

Very importantly is the aircon cold and has good airflow on these CAF?

Do they handle extreme heat well especially 45 C degree plus conditions?

What are they like ride comfort wise especially at speed on rough tracks?

What is the onboard comfort like on the UK sets. Is the 1st class seating comfortable and do they have a large buffet area?

These NSW Trainlink CAF trains will be used on long distance services with one way travel times of upto 15 hours with fairly long distances between stations.

Finally as UK user of these CAF trains would you recommend them?

Draws air through teeth...

Breakdowns are mainly software related or crew unfamiliarity. However there have been some issues with hardware - inner couplers to wrong spec so couldn't traverse certain curves, leaking rooves, some early issues with engines shutting down in service on the diesel(-mechanical) multiple units; electrical problems with the EMUs when stabled causing OLE voltage issues, regen brake logic faults, to name a few.

Ride quality is very poor over short-wavelength bumps and joints, but they seem to iron out longer wavelength kinks compared to some other stock which has a far smoother ride in general over the bumps and joints. Imagine when you see some boy racer in a hatchback that's been lowered as far as it can go and you'll get the idea.

Air-con seemed okay last summer, with the odd report of some coaches being slightly uncomfortably warm compared to others (one I got on as a passenger in July certainly was) but we were only running them in service from July and the warmest it got last summer for a day or two was something like 35°C (which is still hot enough for people to lose their minds over here).

I couldn't recommend them over something like Siemens or Hitachi, no.

I have travelled on new electric, diesel, and loco hauled CAF stock in the north of England. Introduction has been quite difficult, but I suspect that is due to TOC ineptitude as well as CAF problems. Loco hauled stock was very late being delivered and suffered from problems.

Ride is so so, quite jittery on poor track. Air con hasn't had a test yet as it's our winter. As an engineer not involved in the rail industry, so purely a passenger my overall impression is quality isn't that great. I doubt they will still be operating after 40+ years, unlike our HST's and Mk3's which are still doing a good job.

No buffets on the ones I've been on, just a trolley service. Overall loco hauled sets which are my most frequent journey are a better experience than the DMUs they are replacing, but that is mainly down to having end vestibule rather than doors at 1/3 2/3, and no engine under the floor.

The UK has had 75mph CAF DMUs in Northern Ireland for 15 years or so (class 3000/4000).
They seem to be quite well regarded but I don't know the details.

On the mainland (GB), there are 3 current main line operators of new CAF trains (Caledonian Sleeper, Northern and Transpennine).
Caledonian Sleeper (Serco) run loco-hauled sleeper services from London to Scotland with CAF coaches - called Mk 5 over here.
Northern (Arriva for the time being) have a large fleet of 100mph DMU (class 195) and EMU (class 331) trains with many common design features.
Transpennine Express have 2 fleets of 125mph CAF trains, known as Mk5a (loco hauled coaches) and class 397 (EMUs).
All these fleets have a similar look and feel with many similar design features.
We don't have any bi-modes from CAF (those trains come from Hitachi and Stadler).
Two other operators (Transport for Wales and West Midlands Trains) have ordered similar DMUs to Northern's class 195, but they are about a year away from delivery.
There will be quite a large fleet of CAF trains when all the orders are complete.

We are about 2 years into the CAF experience in GB, but none of the fleets is yet fully in service.
None of the fleet introductions was easy, and there have been many accusations of poor specification, poor build quality and low reliability.
Some of this might well be due to the operators here, who don't seem to have coped well with the challenge of new trains, or to unique national standards.
Trains were late to be delivered, with extended acceptance and significant rework - none of the fleets are entirely accepted yet.
If you read some of the CAF threads on this forum you will find many issues identified, including door operation, passenger information systems, brakes, bogies, software etc.
Air-con doesn't figure much in the complaints, so maybe that's OK.
Traction systems seem pretty good, with fast acceleration, but ride quality is very poor, compared to previous generations.
Accommodation is generally good (wi-fi, power points etc), with usually decent seat spacing, layout and views out (no reversal of seats at termini, though!).
From what I read, maintenance was not contracted to CAF itself, as for most new fleets these days, and might be one of the problems.

I've been on NSW trains as far as Lithgow (XPT) and Canberra (Xplorer DMU), with their 75mph track and frequent curves through the hills.
Theoretically they should be a good fit for such routes if NSW gets its spec right for the interior.
Not so sure about the long trips to places like Melbourne, Brisbane and Dubbo though, where you need a good ambience and a smooth, quiet ride for hours on end.
The bi-modes will be very useful in the Sydney electric suburban area which extends some 50-150km or so from Central, but as I say we have no direct experience of the CAF bi-mode version.

Two words: ride quality, ride quality, ride quality

Rinse and repeat...

@thaitransit
A quick view of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construcciones_y_Auxiliar_de_Ferrocarriles will demonstrate that CAF has built lots of passenger carrying rail vehicles of many different types for many customers all around the world. The multiple teething difficulties being experienced with the introduction into service of CAF built trains here in Britain does not seem to reflect the experience with CAF stock elsewhere: perhaps that is due to our rail system being just that little bit different. As for their ability to handle a hot climate just consider how much CAF stock is running around Spain, a country whose climate is not too far removed from that of Australia; I really do not think you need have any concerns on that front'

CAF, like any manufacturer, will build to what is specified. If the specification is cheap as chips, the product will reflect that, and by contrast a demanding specification will result in a higher quality. Things like air con, seats, and ride quality will be determined by what the customer asks for (and pays for!) - it's things like build quality and software that are a bit more reflective of the manufacturer rather than the organisation that spec'd the train and there have been some rather interesting stories about the UK CAF fleets on that front.

thaitransit said:

Do they handle extreme heat well especially 45 C degree plus conditions?

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The UK rarely ever sees much heat never mind that kind of heat

As a Spanish manufacturer I suspect CAF are able to build trains that can handle heat though.

Bodywork wise, passenger saloon, features - all fairly good. Fuel consumption - awful.

I have to agree with all earlier posts - sole *major* issue - ride quality - The two operators who've bought these trains in the North of England, their trains seem to bang around, some customers stated 'it feels like the axles are loose". I have to agree, it's like an old Leyland National bus with all the wheelbolts undone, even at speed there are significant bangs.

Is there any more CAF stock to be delivered? There’s not been a working down the Portbury line yet this year, I was wondering whether that was it for these moves (and possibly the last freight down here for a while since nothing else is currently running apart from the odd engineering move)

I can't say I've ever had any issues with the C3K / C4K Family of units as used by Northern Ireland Railways at all. I would say they are some of if not the best DMU Fleet around. Unfortunately CAF does seem to have a bit of a hit and miss reputation elsewhere though. The IE Mk4s suffered from ride quality issues for several years, while the new stock for Northern seems to be suffering the same. Of course, as mentioned above, it will all depend on the specifications provided to CAF by the operator, although the difference between the C4K and the 195 for Northern certainly includes a switch from traditional bogies to the now more common inside frame bogies used elsewhere.

One of the new class 195s got stuck in my home town with a brake fault. Had to wait for a fitter to be flown out from Barcelona to Spain to fix it (maybe under warranty) - you may need to plan for a longer time for said fitter to make it to NSW in a repeat scenario...

LNW-GW Joint said:

On the mainland (GB), there are 3 current main line operators of new CAF trains (Caledonian Sleeper, Northern and Transpennine).

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I would consider the 332s and 333s CAF units as well, which have performed quite well since introduction.

I see from the Railway Gazette archive that NSW Trainlink has ordered one regional fleet from Hyundai Rotem, and another (long distance) from CAF.

The Rotem fleet is double deck electric stock and will be limited to the Sydney electric system:
https://www.railwaygazette.com/trac...-city-trains-to-new-south-wales/55278.article
The first units of this fleet are now being delivered to Sydney.

The CAF fleet is for long-distance diesel services reaching outside the electric area to Melbourne, Brisbane and inland to Dubbo:
https://www.railwaygazette.com/pass...outh-wales-regional-train-fleet/48049.article

The CAF order includes training simulators which is something neither Northern or TPE thought to acquire for the GB orders.
There will also be a new manufacturing plant in Dubbo and 15 years of maintenance from CAF on a PPP deal more like our IEP contract.
All that seems to require a greater commitment from CAF than our TOC contracts

Having extensively travelled on both the 195/331s since introduction in July my complaints:
- Ride quality is very poor over points - the 195s feels much worse in this regard than the 331s. At speed on a straight, decent track it's okay.
- Some units have bogies which 'clunk' and go right through the carriage
- Single glazed panels in the doors attracts condensation in cold weather? Why on earth would you do this as this was always going to happen? Can only imagine it's not a problem in Spain so why need it in the balmy island country that is the UK!
- 331s have a loud bang when the pantograph moves up/down (although not uncommon it's loud when you're sat under it)
- Some overhead storage, panels etc. are irritatingly jittery/loose already
- Over-complicated door release system that leaves Northern guards in a sweating fluster when arriving at major stations (i.e. Manchester Piccadilly & Oxford Road)

Interior nice - spectacular in fact when compared with Northern's existing stock - but there are a lot of problems. I'm sure those who work on them like Llama could provide a snagging list equivalent to War and Peace!

LNW-GW Joint said:

There will also be a new manufacturing plant in Dubbo and 15 years of maintenance from CAF on a PPP deal more like our IEP contract. All that seems to require a greater commitment from CAF than our TOC contracts

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Not that different to CAF's deal with the Welsh Government to establish a manufacturing plant in Wales. Of course, both the company and the WG will insist that the later Keolis Amey order for CAF's trains was a total coincidence - but they have to say that, don't they?

js1000 said:

- Single glazed panels in the doors attracts condensation in cold weather? Why on earth would you do this as this was always going to happen? Can only imagine it's not a problem in Spain so why need it in the balmy island country that is the UK!

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I noticed this too, it's clearly Northern being cheap as the TPE units and LHCS I think have double glazed door windows.

The 333s are made by then arnt they and I've always liked them they are knocking on 20 year old now and as far as I know they are in decent condition in less there is something I don't know

333s are Siemens, but are nice units, a massive step up in quality when introduced on the lines north of Leeds.

The bang when you're sat under the pantograph well is the VCB opening and closing. Two bangs at every overhead neutral section, all being well. It's ridiculously loud, it sounds like a large brick has been dropped on the roof.

JKF said:

333s are Siemens, but are nice units, a massive step up in quality when introduced on the lines north of Leeds.

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Built by CAF in Spain to (I think) a Siemens design

And with a Siemens maintenance contract?

LNW-GW Joint said:

The UK has had 75mph CAF DMUs in Northern Ireland for 15 years or so (class 3000/4000).
They seem to be quite well regarded but I don't know the details.

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90mph for the C3K/C4K at NIR

Mechanically the C3K were based on the earlier 2900 class DMUs for Irish Rail, which other then having a rather austere interior for inner suburban workings (which became a problem when for a while they were regularly rostered to 3 hour plus long distance runs) have been pretty solid performers for Irish Rail. It's also worth pointing out that IR liked them enough to buy a second batch. NIR in turn also bought a second batch.

Irish Rail also bought some push-pull loco hauled stock from CAF, the MKIVs. They did have some teething problems at first, most notably a poor ride but to be fair, the line between Dublin and Cork was in pretty poor condition at the time and the much missed MKIIIs didn't ride all that great there either.

Llama said:

The bang when you're sat under the pantograph well is the VCB opening and closing. Two bangs at every overhead neutral section, all being well. It's ridiculously loud, it sounds like a large brick has been dropped on the roof.

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That is similar to Queensland Railways electric trains. As they use 25kv AC overhead where as Melbourne and Sydney use far older 1500 volt DC overhead. The latter does not drop out at any point.

The Queensland Railway electric trains at every rather long neutral section tends to cut out the aircon and lights for 30 to 90 seconds enough for the outside heat to start warming the carrages.

On the north coast line in regional areas the neutral sections seem to be extremely long in places so much so they train goes completely dead for quite a few minutes and loses alot of speed too before crawling along dead untill finally powering back up. No idea why this happens as it isn't the case in urban areas of Queensland.

It isn't good news to hear they dont ride very well and where delivered late as NSW Trainlink is desperate for new rolling stock now especially after they lost a set into the dirt at wallan in Victoria due to signal faults and poor track.

These CAF trains will need to operate on hundreds of miles of extremely rough track re the Albury line. This line has already had 2 derailments this year!

1 freight train that a passenger train hit the containers on the track!

2. Was a full speed derailment of the Sydney to Melbourne XPT just over a week ago that killed 2 people and injured dozens of people. The recovery is due to be completed this weekend!

Hopefully the CAF trains can operate better in these conditions better than the current trains.

Also hopefully they can cope with the heat and dust that regularly occurs on some routes. This summer they would have had to handle temperatures of upto 49 degrees C for days on end and dust storms so thick you could hardly see your hand in front of your face.

Time will tell what NSW trainlink gets I just wish they are good and will arrive sooner than 2023! I doubt the current fleet will last the time. Losts of uncomfortable long bus replacement ahead!

Interesting that CAF occupy most of the lower places on this months Modern Railways new train reliability survey with only Vivarail 230 and Bombardier 345 below.
However on a more positive note the TPe CAF mk5 sets are at number 3 behind the Hitachi 802 and 385s albeit with Caterpillar power.
K

superkev said:

Interesting that CAF occupy most of the lower places on this months Modern Railways new train reliability survey with only Vivarail 230 and Bombardier 345 below.
However on a more positive note the TPe CAF mk5 sets are at number 3 behind the Hitachi 802 and 385s albeit with Caterpillar power.
K

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Also reporting that several class 397 EMUs require new windscreens to replace cracked versions.
Not very encouraging, when most of them are not even in service yet.

332s and 333s were built by CAF in Zaragoza with Siemens running gear, under a joint venture by the two manufacturers. They've generally performed pretty well but there have been one or two issues such as the 332s being stopped after cracks were discovered in the bogies/underframes. One of the 333s (333009) is currently at Derby being assessed after developing a similar fault.

Their EMUs in use in Spain seem to be perfectly adequate, though in two trips on them I had one breakdown, this was luckily fixed within 20 minutes so I didn't miss my connection.

LNW-GW Joint said:

Also reporting that several class 397 EMUs require new windscreens to replace cracked versions.
Not very encouraging, when most of them are not even in service yet.

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I was one a TPE from Manchester to Preston on Wednesday. I was somewhat disappointed. Carriage was too hot. (although staff said this a recognised problem that they are trying to resolve). Ride quality was awful which is shared with Northern's 195s.

Nick Ashwell said:

Built by CAF in Spain to (I think) a Siemens design

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The similar 332s had serious cracking issues. I have seen it reported that similar has been found in at least some 333s.

Edited to add: 61653 gave chapter and verse in a post that l missed.