Fixed Penalty Fair given while buying ticket at destination station.

Grebello · 16 Feb 2020

I tried to purchase a ticket at Burley Park Station as I was travelling to Leeds station to catch another train to London, however the machine was not accepting my card and I didn't have any cash on me. I then proceeded to try and purchase a ticket online, however by this point the ticket was unavailable to purchase. Upon arrival in Leeds station I went straight to the ticket desk on the platform side of the barrier to purchase a ticket for the train I had just been on as I had been unable to do so up until this point. On arrival at the desk I was pulled aside by a woman and told that I was getting fined. I feel cheated by the system and do not feel I should be fined. May I also point out that, had I decided not to try and buy a ticket on arrival at Leeds station I would not have received a fine, and would have been able to use the train for free. I also showed them a screenshot of the ticket app not allowing me to buy tickets as well.

My question is, is it legal for them to issue fines at the ticket office, as surely being caught voluntarily trying to buy a ticket shows that there is no intent to avoid paying?

RailUK Forums

some bloke · 16 Feb 2020

Grebello said:
is it legal for them to issue fines at the ticket office, as surely being caught voluntarily trying to buy a ticket shows that there is no intent to avoid paying?

My view is that it isn't lawful in the likely circumstances, but for a different reason. It's a requirement for a penalty fare that you are asked for a ticket. That seems unlikely in your case.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 said:
"4.—(1)A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket. ...
5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

It's a legal argument the company and magistrates may not like.

Someone who didn't intend to avoid a fare could still be charged a penalty fare under the regulations.

Before a decision has been made on a penalty fare appeal (and before the time limit), a company can withdraw the penalty fare demand or refund the payment for it, and prosecute instead. Was there a sign at Burley Park saying you had to obtain a Promise to Pay notice as an alternative to a standard ticket?

Grebello said:
the machine was not accepting my card

That might provide another ground for appeal - ideally with evidence such as if you could take a video of it failing to work in that machine, and a video of another machine accepting the card.

gray1404 · 16 Feb 2020

I would not focus on the fact you tried to buy a ticket on your phone. That is not relevant and it could look like you only tried to do that when challenged or once you had started your journey.

You have not received a fine. Only a Court can issue a fine. Rather, it sounds like you have received a Penalty Fare. This will have been for £20 or twice the single fare for your journey (whichever is greater). You are not obliged to have cash on you as paying by card is an accepted payment method by the railway. So, you can appeal the penalty fare on the basis that you had not had an opportunity to purchase your ticket before you started your journey. You were not offered opportunity to purchase on the train and your first opportunity was when you got to Leeds. This is because you attempted to purchase your ticket from the ticket machine at the station but it was not functioning correctly and therefore you were not able to purchase your ticket. You attempted to purchase your ticket at the first opportunity.

This must be done within 21 days of the date of the incident and can be done online or by post. Instructions will be on the notice you received. Once you had dealt with the person who stopped you, did you then go and purchase a Burley Park to London ticket. Do you still have this?

Grebello · 16 Feb 2020

some bloke said:
My view is that it isn't lawful in the likely circumstances, but for a different reason. It's a requirement for a penalty fare that you are asked for a ticket. That seems unlikely in your case.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

It's a legal argument the company and magistrates may not like.

Someone who didn't intend to avoid a fare could still be charged a penalty fare under the regulations.

Before a decision has been made on a penalty fare appeal (and before the time limit), a company can withdraw the penalty fare demand or refund the payment for it, and prosecute instead. Was there a sign at Burley Park saying you had to obtain a Promise to Pay notice as an alternative to a standard ticket?

That might provide another ground for appeal - ideally with evidence such as if you could take a video of it failing to work in that machine, and a video of another machine accepting the card.

I appealed using the same wording as the original post so that's in process - I wasn't charged on the spot so I havent yet handed over any money. I think I'm going to see the outcome of the appeal, then if its lost just pay the £20 but also send a letter to the station about having a revenue protection officer stood next to the ticket desk listening to peoples conversations in order to try and fine people.

some bloke · 16 Feb 2020

Is it clear that the machine wasn't working in general, rather than just with that card?

Is there a way for @Grebello to find that out more quickly than through the appeal process?

Grebello · 16 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
I would not focus on the fact you tried to buy a ticket on your phone. That is not relevant and it could look like you only tried to do that when challenged or once you had started your journey.

You have not received a fine. Only a Court can issue a fine. Rather, it sounds like you have received a Penalty Fare. This will have been for £20 or twice the single fare for your journey (whichever is greater). You are not obliged to have cash on you as paying by card is an accepted payment method by the railway. So, you can appeal the penalty fare on the basis that you had not had an opportunity to purchase your ticket before you started your journey. You were not offered opportunity to purchase on the train and your first opportunity was when you got to Leeds. This is because you attempted to purchase your ticket from the ticket machine at the station but it was not functioning correctly and therefore you were not able to purchase your ticket. You attempted to purchase your ticket at the first opportunity.

This must be done within 21 days of the date of the incident and can be done online or by post. Instructions will be on the notice you received. Once you had dealt with the person who stopped you, did you then go and purchase a Burley Park to London ticket. Do you still have this?

I already had my ticket from leeds to london, I only decided on the day to take the train from burley park to leeds. As I was unable to purchase a ticket at the station (burley park) I went straight to the manned ticket desk platform side at leeds which is where I was pulled aside - it does seem to me like a bit of a sneaky trap - also I wasnt asked to present a ticket I was just told that I was unable to buy a ticket.

Grebello · 16 Feb 2020

some bloke said:
Is it clear that the machine wasn't working in general, rather than just with that card?

Is there a way for @Grebello to find that out more quickly than through the appeal process?

No there was no clear indication the machine wasnt working in general, it did just seem specific to that card :/

gray1404 · 16 Feb 2020

In that case we are only dealing with your journey between Burley Park and Leeds. I've just checked online and it appears that station does not have a ticket office, only a ticket machine. Therefore, you need to submit an appeal on the basis that the penalty fare was wrongly issued because:

1. You did not have an opportunity to purchase before you boarded the train. This is because when you attempted to use the ticket machine it malfunctioned. There was also no opportunity to purchase from a member of staff on board the train. Once at Leeds you approached the ticket desk and attempted to buy a ticket. There was only this one ticket machine at the starting station which was not working and there is no ticket office at that station.
2. Furthermore, the person who issued you with the Penalty Fare failed to apply the regulations correct and it is therefore void. This is because they did not ask to see a valid ticket and proceeded to issue a Penalty Fare solely on the basis you were attempting to buy a ticket at the ticket office. They failed to establish the facts of the case and ignored the facts of the matter then you explained to them that the ticket machine at your starting station was not functioning correct and you had not yet had opportunity to purchase.

Can I also check the amount that the Penalty Fare was issued for? This this is incorrect then that is another ground for appeal.

Once you have appealed against a penalty fare, the train company is then statute barred from taking legal action on the matter in normal circumstances. You have 3 attempts to appeal and it is not uncommon for people to be rejected on their first appeal but then they win when they appeal the second and third times.

gray1404 · 16 Feb 2020

Without trying another card in the machine you will never know it was your card or not. Plus if that card was working correctly elsewhere then it likely isn't your card. I am assuming you had enough money in the bank. Ok so the card didn't work. Did the ticket machine accept cash? If it didn't then that's another basis for being able to start your journey. Be careful in your appeal not to say anything to shoot yourself in the foot or make it easy for them to reject your appeal.

Grebello · 16 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
Without trying another card in the machine you will never know it was your card or not. Plus if that card was working correctly elsewhere then it likely isn't your card. I am assuming you had enough money in the bank. Ok so the card didn't work. Did the ticket machine accept cash? If it didn't then that's another basis for being able to start your journey. Be careful in your appeal not to say anything to shoot yourself in the foot or make it easy for them to reject your appeal.

The penalty fare was £20 - and I never have problems with that card and used it before and afterwards with no problems. Thanks for all your help btw

some bloke · 16 Feb 2020

Grebello said:
it does seem to me like a bit of a sneaky trap - also I wasnt asked to present a ticket

Maybe some campaigners/Transport Focus would be interested in the fact that you were charged a penalty fare despite what the regulations say about asking. In my view it would have been easy for those drafting the regulations to say you are liable for a penalty fare if you travel without a valid ticket (ie regardless of whether you have been asked) - but they put in the part about asking.

Grebello said:
there was no clear indication the machine wasnt working in general, it did just seem specific to that card

Conceivably, it could be a combination of that card and that machine. If you could get the company to confirm whether the machine had a fault (which we might hope would happen in the course of the appeal, though reality may be different) that may be useful to you.

gray1404 said:
Once you have appealed against a penalty fare, the train company is then statute barred from taking legal action

They are barred from prosecuting for the usual offences after the appeal decision, or after the time limit, under regulation 11(3). Otherwise they can still prosecute after an appeal has been submitted.

If you post a draft of an appeal letter on here, people can comment. It should be brief.

Starmill · 16 Feb 2020

I would think that explaining that you tried to use the ticket machine but couldn't, and then couldn't get a ticket on the train, but did try to get a ticket as soon as possible at your destination would be reasonably strong grounds for appeal.

I am not sure if there is a good way to evidence having the funds available to pay at that time without compromising your privacy (a redacted bank statement, perhaps?), but then this may actually not be necessary.

Certainly I think your Penalty Fare (assuming that this is what it was) is incorrectly issued, for this and other reasons, but this is probably what I would focus on.

The company is very frequently accused of trying to issue Penalty Fares without complying with the regulations, so your case does not surprise me. In my opinion they are operating unethically too (not that this has any legal meaning).

30907 · 16 Feb 2020

I would certainly appeal the PF on the ground that you attempted to pay with a card you believed to be working. You can no doubt give evidence of that.

As you had no cash, the fact that the machine does not accept cash is irrelevant. I agree with Starmill that I would not appeal re the process - you did not have a relevant ticket, so asking you to show it would have made no practical difference.

Having an address close to Burley Park station would support your appeal, though it is not a requirement - as you may know, a disproportionately large number of passengers arrive at Leeds and ask for tickets from there

OT: given that cards sometimes randomly fail to work, I would be wary of making a long journey with no other means of payment - I wonder whether you ought to get a backup card or similar?

some bloke · 16 Feb 2020

Is it as simple as that @Grebello did all he could, or was he obliged to get a Promise to Pay from the machine when he couldn't get a normal ticket?

some bloke said:
Was there a sign at Burley Park saying you had to obtain a Promise to Pay notice as an alternative to a standard ticket?

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

30907 said:
you did not have a relevant ticket, so asking you to show it would have made no practical difference.

It makes a legal difference if there's a formal requirement that the person must be asked, and if that was not complied with. It may be a new idea to the company and appeal board, so if there's an easier way the argument may be redundant. However, there might be no harm in mentioning it with the intention of following it up in subsequent appeals/action if necessary.

Starmill · 16 Feb 2020

some bloke said:
Is it as simple as that @Grebello did all he could, or was he obliged to get a Promise to Pay from the machine when he couldn't get a normal ticket?

You can't get a promise to pay in these circumstances - the machine asks you to confirm to agree to payment in cash, and the OP couldn't do so, because they didn't have any.

30907 · 16 Feb 2020

some bloke said:
Is it as simple as that @Grebello did all he could, or was he obliged to get a Promise to Pay from the machine when he couldn't get a normal ticket?
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

Interesting question - IIRC the wording on the machines refers to being able to pay cash, which is rather more restrictive (too much so, some on here have argued).

Sorry, Starmill was quicker.

Grebello · 16 Feb 2020

30907 said:
Interesting question - IIRC the wording on the machines refers to being able to pay cash, which is rather more restrictive (too much so, some on here have argued).

Sorry, Starmill was quicker.

I've submitted an appeal based on the grounds I did everything in my power to purchase a ticket & stated I was only issued a penalty fare when trying to buy a ticket from the ticket desk, and also that I was not asked to present a ticket either. I also live at an address 1 min walk from burley station so threw that in for good measure. Hopefully the appeal will be successful, but if not I'll use all the appeals and then just pay £20 west case scenario - at least I tried ha!

gray1404 · 16 Feb 2020

When you hear back from your appeal the time limit to submit a second appeal is in a short time frame. If your first appeal is not successful reply here with
The wording of your first appeal and
The wording of the reply you have received

We shall then help you draft a second appeal which quotes the appropriate parts from the Penalty Fare Regulations to give you maximum chance of success.

some bloke · 16 Feb 2020

Starmill said:
You can't get a promise to pay in these circumstances - the machine asks you to confirm to agree to payment in cash

Thank you - that's much more helpful than the official policy on the website (and perhaps the signs).

thejuggler · 16 Feb 2020

The TVM card readers are flaky at the best of times. I am now in the habit of taking a photo of the TVM screen every time it fails to do what it is supposed to do.

Grebello · 16 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
When you hear back from your appeal the time limit to submit a second appeal is in a short time frame. If your first appeal is not successful reply here with
The wording of your first appeal and
The wording of the reply you have received

We shall then help you draft a second appeal which quotes the appropriate parts from the Penalty Fare Regulations to give you maximum chance of success.

I will keep you guys posted on the outcome - cheers once again for all the advice and help!

Belperpete · 17 Feb 2020

gray1404 said:
When you hear back from your appeal the time limit to submit a second appeal is in a short time frame. If your first appeal is not successful reply here with
The wording of your first appeal and
The wording of the reply you have received

As gray1404 says, the time to raise a second appeal - or pay up - is quite limited. I have seen advice on previous threads that if charged a penalty fare, it is generally recommended to pay up-front, and then appeal it. This removes any chance that the TOC can take you to court if you fail to meet any of the deadlines for any reason, e.g. if you are away on holiday.

gray1404 · 17 Feb 2020

Am I correct in saying that the 21 days to PAY the penalty fare stops when the appeal is submitted. If unsuccessful does it restart (however many days of the 21 days are left) from the date of the decision? Can someone confirm that.

However, I understand that once the penalty fare is either paid or an appeal decided on (regardless of if the appeal is successful or not), the train company is then statue barred from commencing criminal proceedings on the matter? Could someone confirm if that is correct and if so is it just criminal matters the bar applies to?

Finally, once a first appeal rejection is issued how short is the time frame to submit a second appeal? I know it might be short but still enough time to consult and draft something with the help of the forum.

robbeech · 18 Feb 2020

Appeals – stage two
17.—(1) Where an Appeal Panel has notified an appellant that it has not allowed an appeal made under regulation 16, the appellant may appeal to the relevant Appeal Panel against that decision—

(a)before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the day on which the notice of such decision is received; or

(b)within such longer period as the relevant Appeal Panel may allow.

Seems to suggest 14 days (and likewise between second and third stages). Yes, it should stop but, interestingly however, there are TOCs that seem to keep the clock ticking. an example itinerary for this follows, it's unsure whether this is through deliberate means or incompetence.

Day 0 - Penalty fare issued (entirely unlawfully, the machine had a shattered screen and photographic evidence was supplied at the time)
Day 14 - Penalty fare appealed stage 1 - passenger only realised about the possibility of appeal after re reading the notice and obtaining advice on social media.
Day 22 - Appeal Rejected - No record of the machine being out of order.
Day 23 - Second stage appeal submitted
Day 25 - Letter through the post to say you haven't paid within 21 days
Day 30 - Second stage appeal rejected - Machine shows as working, despite the operator booking engineers to go to fix it after many reports of it being smashed.
Day 31 - Third Stage appeal submitted including notes on how the cost has escalated despite being in the middle of appeals
Day 35 - Appeal Rejected - They should have used the app to purchase an e ticket.
Day 36 - original penalty fare of £20 paid (what more could they do)
Day 44 - Threat of court proceedings for non payment or additional penalties for not paying on time
Day 45 - Stern phone call from good samaritan
Day 45 and 6 minutes - Matter dismissed
Day 48 - Confirmation letter and apology with £15 RTV
Day 48+n - successful refund of £20 paid.

gray1404 · 18 Feb 2020

The above example just shows how pathetic the appeals system is. That would even say that I customer should have used an app.

Grebello · 19 Feb 2020

robbeech said:
Seems to suggest 14 days (and likewise between second and third stages). Yes, it should stop but, interestingly however, there are TOCs that seem to keep the clock ticking. an example itinerary for this follows, it's unsure whether this is through deliberate means or incompetence.

Day 0 - Penalty fare issued (entirely unlawfully, the machine had a shattered screen and photographic evidence was supplied at the time)
Day 14 - Penalty fare appealed stage 1 - passenger only realised about the possibility of appeal after re reading the notice and obtaining advice on social media.
Day 22 - Appeal Rejected - No record of the machine being out of order.
Day 23 - Second stage appeal submitted
Day 25 - Letter through the post to say you haven't paid within 21 days
Day 30 - Second stage appeal rejected - Machine shows as working, despite the operator booking engineers to go to fix it after many reports of it being smashed.
Day 31 - Third Stage appeal submitted including notes on how the cost has escalated despite being in the middle of appeals
Day 35 - Appeal Rejected - They should have used the app to purchase an e ticket.
Day 36 - original penalty fare of £20 paid (what more could they do)
Day 44 - Threat of court proceedings for non payment or additional penalties for not paying on time
Day 45 - Stern phone call from good samaritan
Day 45 and 6 minutes - Matter dismissed
Day 48 - Confirmation letter and apology with £15 RTV
Day 48+n - successful refund of £20 paid.

Well I submitted my appeal on day 0 so hopefully that will give me a little more time.

BanburyBlue · 19 Feb 2020

It does seem a common thread on this forum, where people are challenged while either queuing at an Excess Fares window, or a member of staff with the ability to issue tickets.

I agree with the OP, this sounds very dodgy practice.

sheff1 · 19 Feb 2020

It is, indeed, normal practice at some stations.

Meanwhile those who have no intention of buying a ticket ignore the queue and continue on their way with impunity - if the OP had been dishonest, rather than honest, they could have got straight onto the London train and used the ticket they already held without any problem.

PeterC · 19 Feb 2020

BanburyBlue said:
It does seem a common thread on this forum, where people are challenged while either queuing at and Excess Fares window, or a member of staff with the ability to issue tickets.

I agree with the OP, this sounds very dodgy practice.

So presumably the Excess Fares Window isn't actually there for the payment of excess fares but is part of a sting to catch people who didn't pay before travelling.

hkstudent · 19 Feb 2020

PeterC said:
So presumably the Excess Fares Window isn't actually there for the payment of excess fares but is part of a sting to catch people who didn't pay before travelling.

Which means that the system is trying to hunt honest people.

Fixed Penalty Fair given while buying ticket at destination station.

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