Mikey C
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C2C in Trouble?
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Metro and long distance/HS1 feel like totally different networks. Great trains on long distance and VERY tired trains on Metro. If SE want to keep it as one network letting metro routes decline into such shabbiness doesn't help the argument.
SE is better now than under Horton. That was a bad time. Se was also pretty terrible around 2010 long before London Bridge work. Better now.
Though one thing I've noticed is that congestion is now common again on the approach to London Bridge. All the work seemed to have bought about 2 years grace. Passenger numbers rocketed last year in the Metro areas due to more new homes - and in SE London there's no tube or DLR in most areas to help. People need the train for work in Canary Wharf (changing for DLR) and central London. Crossrail will only help the Woolwich line. Lewisham needs sorting but no one wants to fund.
SE is better now than under Horton. That was a bad time. Se was also pretty terrible around 2010 long before London Bridge work. Better now.
Though one thing I've noticed is that congestion is now common again on the approach to London Bridge. All the work seemed to have bought about 2 years grace. Passenger numbers rocketed last year in the Metro areas due to more new homes - and in SE London there's no tube or DLR in most areas to help. People need the train for work in Canary Wharf (changing for DLR) and central London. Crossrail will only help the Woolwich line. Lewisham needs sorting but no one wants to fund.
Mikey C
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Passengers don't generally differentiate between the train operator and the track operator.
If you're late due to a points failure, "it's that useless Southeastern's fault" even though it's nothing to do with them...
If you're late due to a points failure, "it's that useless Southeastern's fault" even though it's nothing to do with them...
3141
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Sometime in the past twelve months Modern Railways had an article about c2c. From memory, I think the MD said they had about 38,000 passengers into Fenchurch Street in the morning peak. About 230,000 new homes are planned in the South Essex area that c2c serves, and if only 10% of those new homes produced just one extra passenger each, the company would face some interesting challenges. Perhaps National Express, and then Trenitalia, assumed that they'd get that level of additional revenue to support increased premium payments. But what may now be happening is a reduction in commuter travel as a result of changing work patterns, while the increase in passengers from new housing hasn't yet materialised, or doesn't offset the reduction. It's another example of the uncertainties of population and passenger forecasting combined with the dangers of making very ambitious franchise bids based on them. From the days when there were four bidders for every franchise we know that bidders will take very different views about what's realistic, but there's always someone who wants to win badly enough to make a bid that depends on everything turning out just right.
Class 170101
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Thats a cynical view from those with a left of centre way of thinking rather than right of centre?
I didn't think c2c made money anyway.
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Quite.
Chris M
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If it's just a cynical view from those left of centre, why is there so much evidence of it happening?
Class 170101
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I think thats the point and why the likes the the RMT especially, but not uniquely, always call for public ownership.
Is there? As far as I can see the owning groups have taken the losses up to the contractually agreed amount. In general they're not making money, which is evidenced by several no longer being interested in bidding.
In my opinion the National Passenger Survey isn't worth the paper it is written on. It is compiled by asking passengers on trains to detail their experience of the last journey they made. Human nature means passengers are far more likely to complete it is the journey has been. Therefore if there are issues on that TOC on that day you got more surveys and most of them are bad. However if it runs well you'll get less surveys but all will be good.
a) quite a bit of the new housing is delayed hence this is future demand
b) most of the new housing is well away from traditional greater Southend market, which will need significantly more rolling stock to handle than NatEx or DfT estimated
c) the traditional greater Southend users won't be happy about the lack of prioritision they will be getting in the future.
d) lots of the traditional City employment has shifted to Canary Wharf so the busiest segment is now typically Barking - West Ham and West Ham is Z2/3 boundary so C2C only see a "X" to Z3 not the Z1 so get £1.70 less on a peak walk up fare but still have same rolling stock requirement and costs.
306024
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In a long term project Purfleet is to be regenerated, to be known as Purfleet-on-Thames. Big plans to effectively create a new town, and replace the level crossing at Purfleet station with a bridge. When and whether the station gets renamed we’ll have to wait.
I think that was the case 10-15 years when the franchise system was a "license to print money". But every major transport player cottoned on & DfT (rightly) demanded new trains to reflect passenger growth. Both have led to greater competition, and sadly overambitious franchise tender bids that should have never really been accepted.
samuelmorris
Established Member
C2C have among the cheapest fares of any operator I've seen (despite the number of complaints on twitter about how expensive the line is) - as a predominantly commuter service their revenue also comes almost exclusively from the peaks - no finer illustration of that than the peaceful empty train you get back from Fenchurch Street at midnight compared to the rowdy and well-loaded services from Liverpool Street TOCs. That can't make it easy to earn a profit, but with regulation on how the fares are set, what can they do about it?
That harks back to the 1990s when it was the ‘Misery Line’ and fare increases including seasons were held back compared to the good GE with its ‘new’ trains at the time. Over the years the differential has been maintained.
It’s much less the peak only operator than it once was not least due to the extension of Oyster beyond the GLA boundary part way into Essex.
It's DfT policy that has baked in these daft historical anomalies. You can't re-balance because that needs losers as well as winners, and then somebody's MP will get moaned at.
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