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Liverpool-Glasgow services history?

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Luke McDonnell

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Hi,

As TPE now have a direct Liverpool Lime Street - Glasgow Central service, I am curious about the previous services on this route and what stock was used.

I know in the past Virgin Cross Country operated a Liverpool - Glasgow service, but when did it end, and what was the frequency?

I seem to remember class 158s used for a while; before this did Intercity operate with 47 and Mark 3s?

Also going back further wasn't there a Liverpool-Glasgow service from Exchange station? how frequent where these services and what was used - did it go back to the LMS/LYR era and what where the calling points? Ormskirk-Preston-Lancaster-Penrith-Carlisle?

Regards,

Luke
 
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Grumpy Git

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OT, but I remember picking collecting my in-laws from Lime St. in the early 1990's (not sure which year) when they had travelled direct from Edinburgh. It was a 47 on the front.
 

alistairlees

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Hi,
As TPX now have a direct Liverpool Lime Street-Glasgow Central service I am just curious about the previous services on this route and what stock was used - I know before this year was it Virgin Cross Country that operated a Liverpool Glasgow service and when did it end and what was the frequency what was used on this service I seem to remember class 158s used for a while before this did Intercity operate with 47 and Mark 3s? Also going back further wasn't there a Liverpool-Glasgow service from Exchange station how frequent where these services and what was used - did it go back to the LMS/LYR era and what where the calling points - Ormskirk-Preston-Lancaster-Penrith-Carlisle?

Regards,

Luke
I’m sure there are some other threads on this.

To at least part answer your question though, there were Liverpool to Edinburgh portions that combined with Manchester to Glasgow portions at Preston (dividing again at carstairs) in the 1980s. Diesel south of Preston and also from Carstairs to Edinburgh.

The electric leg could be pretty much any electric (though not usually an 87) and the diesel legs could be any of 25 / 40 / 47. Or 26 in Scotland. No doubt other combinations have occurred.

Stock was mk2 non air conditioned, plus mk1 restaurant / buffet.

On Sundays for a few years there was also an 09.35 Liverpool Lime Street to Edinburgh that ran via York. Always a 47 throughout, with some air conditioned mk2s too.
 
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The Liverpool - Preston portions of Glasgow / Edinburgh services ran from Exchange up until May 1970, generally calling at Ormskirk. The last scheduled BR steam service (apart from the V.o.R) was the Liverpool portion from Glasgow ex Preston in August 1968.

From May 1970 the Liverpool portions ran from Lime Street via Parkside, calling at St Helens Jcn and Wigan NW.

On electrification of the WCML main-line north of Crewe in May 1974, quite a lavish service was provided from Liverpool / Manchester to Glasgow / Edinburgh. By moving down the train between Preston and Carstairs passengers effectively had a through service from Liverpool (and Manchester) to both Scottish cities across the day. It was quite a performance at Preston marshalling the ensemble. Diesel haulage to and from Liverpool and Manchester was generally Cl 47 or 40.

The services were gradually trimmed, and with sectorisation Inter City looked to reduce mileage for which it was the principal user. The Liverpool portions went in May 1987. From May 1989 the Manchester services were diverted to Piccadilly via the new Windsor Link, and there were all sorts of weird services for a while - one started in Stockport, one from Paddington(!) via Birmingham.
 

Bevan Price

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The history of Liverpool / Glasgow /Edinburgh is long and complicated, with no simple answers. Many trains from Liverpool Exhange combined at Preston with portions from Manchester Victoria. The trains then often split at Carstairs, with portions for Glasgow Central, and for Edinburgh (initially Princes Street, but later moved to Waverley when Princes Street closed.) But, particularly in summer, some Liverpool & Manchester trains ran separately. Until the end of steam, Liverpool - Preston portions were most commonly (but not exclusively) Black 5s.
Most trains ran non-stop between Liverpool & Preston, but some called at Ormskirk, and a few at Burscough Jn.
Through trains from Liverpool to Scotland sometimes changed locos at Carlisle, but others were through workings. Motive power might be a Black 5, Jubilee, Patriot, Clan, or Britannia - with very occasional appearances by Stanier Pacifics .

Stopping patterns north of Preston also varied over the years -- I will try to give some examples in a later post.
And many years ago, there had also been through services from Liverpool Exchange via Blackburn, Hellifield & Carlisle to Scotland.

Even when Liverpool Exchange was open, there was an overnight service from Liverpool Lime St. & Manchester Exchange to Scotland, which I think once conveyed sleeping cars.

After Liverpool Exchange closed, services from Lime St. often ran non-stop to Wigan or Preston. Stops at St. Helens Jn. were added later, but in the final years, stops at St. Helens Shaw St./Central replaced the stops at St. Helens Jn.
 

Springs Branch

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I was recently browsing through O.S. Nock's book Electric Euston to Glasgow, written in 1974 & covering the electrification of the northern WCML in the early 1970s.

According to this account, developing a seriously untapped travel market between Liverpool/Manchester and central Scotland was a significant plank supporting BR's business case for Weaver Junction - Glasgow electrification. No doubt this was the reason for provision of the lavish post-electrification services mentioned by @Sir Felix Pole.

As I recall, after electrification the Preston & Carstairs "portion" trains ran about a two hourly frequency through the day. I think the buffet car on these trains always stayed with the Manchester/Glasgow portion and the mechanics of the splits & combinations could sometimes mean the buffet ended up as either the first or last coach in the train, rather than the centre, which could mean a longish walk to buy your cup of MaxPax tea.

At morning and evening "business peak" times there were still separate full-length Liverpool Lime St/Edinburgh and Manchester Vic/Glasgow* trains, which did not divide en route but were timed for cross-platform connections on platforms 3 and 4 at Preston. The Manchester - Glasgow train departed from Preston first and had the faster run north, while the Liverpool - Edinburgh took off 5 or so minutes later, with stops at more stations along the way.

Actual patronage of Inter-City's enhanced Liverpool - Glasgow services post-electrification never really matched up to BR's optimistic projections.

This had been foreshadowed in Nock's book. He pointed out that, notwithstanding faster electric trains once on the WCML, many of the "favoured suburbs" in Manchester and Liverpool - the source of the prosperous businessmen expected to travel to meetings in Glasgow or Edinburgh - were on the wrong side of town for these trains. Time-poor executives living in West Kirby or Wilmslow would need to change stations in either Liverpool or Manchester city centre (no Merseyrail link & loop, or Windsor Link in those days), so they would be likely to use their car for the whole trip. Same thing applied to Bert and Ada travelling from Crosby or Sale with a heavy suitcase each.

The silver lining to this cloud was that after a year or two, by the late 1970s, BR started to offer attractively-priced promotional day returns between North-west England and Glasgow/Edinburgh in an attempt to fill some of the empty seats. Cue a couple of grand days out for myself north of the border. Standing in a rammed present-day TPE EMU, I look back fondly at the days when you had no trouble getting a bay of 4 to yourself (complete with coffin-shaped table & winged headrest) in a sparsely-filled Mk.2 speeding past the Lake District on a sunny summer's morning for a cheap day spotting around Glasgow.


* Around 1976 or 1977, soon after introduction of Mk.3 hauled stock on the WCML, a "premium" Euston/Glasgow set was deployed on the morning Manchester - Glasgow train and the last evening Glasgow - Manchester Vic., giving the incongruous sight of a shiny, brand-new train of Mk.3s at the run-down "old" Manchester Victoria.
This stock was a Longsight set, and to get it home for overnight servicing, the Victoria station pilot dragged the ECS back towards the Chat Moss route just past Ordsall Lane Junction, after which the train loco took it in the opposite direction along the South Junction line to Castlefield Jn, Oxford Rd and on to Longsight. [[getting a bit OT for Liverpool trains here - sorry]]
 

LNW-GW Joint

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When I started to take an interest in timetables in 1961, I think there were only 3 NW-Scotland trains.
2 ran on the "L&Y" route from Man Vic to Preston (and avoiding Bolton via the Atherton line and Blackrod), with the Liverpool portion coming from Exchange.
The other one took the "LNWR" route (Man Exchange/Tyldesley and Lime St/St Helens) via Wigan NW.
The Birmingham service was even thinner, with I think just morning and afternoon services (and a sleeper).
The 1974 timetable was a great improvement, though still messed about with joining/splitting at Preston/Carstairs.
I was always heading for Edinburgh, but the restaurant car stayed in the Glasgow portion.
Birmingham was the great beneficiary, not needing a split at the south end and pretty much a clock-face 2-hourly timetable.
These trains were also non-stop between Crewe and Preston, and maybe even Preston/Lancaster-Carlisle, unlike today.
The NW trains did make more stops to fill in the gaps, but I don't think they were ever a full 2-hourly service to alternate with the Birminghams.
 
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Bevan Price

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Examples of some Liverpool / Scotland timetables.
Summer 1958
Liverpool Exchange departures & stops (u. = pick up only, s. = set down only):
08:57 (SX); Preston (u.), Carlisle; Lockerbie; Beattock; Carstairs**; Motherwell; Glasgow Cen. (14:20)
(** - Detach Edinburgh portion, called at Merchiston & Princes St. (14:20)
09:10 (SO); Preston (u.), (attach Southport portion); Carlisle; Motherwell; Glasgow Cen. (14:33)
09:43 (SO); Preston (u.); Carlisle; then same stops as 08:57 (above) to Glasgow (15:20) & Edinburgh (15:14)
14:15; Preston (u.), (attach Manchester portion); Lancaster; Penrith; Carlisle; Beattock; Carstairs; Motherwell & Glasgow (19:50)/ (Edinburgh Princes St. portion was from Manchester Vic.)
16:25; Ormskirk (u.); Burscough Jn; Preston (attach Manchester portion); Lancaster; Carlisle; then same stops as 08:57 (except Merchiston)

Sundays
09:40; Ormskirk (u.); Burscough Jn (u.); Preston; Lancaster; Carnforth; Oxenholme; Penrith; Carlisle; then same stops as weekdays 16:25.
13:10 (6 July - 31 Aug. only); Ormskirk; Burscough Jn; Preston (attach Manchester portion); Carnforth; Carlisle; then same stops as 09:40. Edinburgh portion also set down at Harburn.

From Liverpool Lime St
00:45 Daily, including Su: St. Helens Shaw St: Wigan NW (attach Manchester Exchange portion); Preston; Penrith; Carlisle; Beattock; Carstairs; Motherwell (s.); Glasgow Cen. (07:40) > Conveyed SC.
(Edinburgh portion from Manchester, called at most stations between Carstairs & Edinburgh Princes St.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Southbound to Liverpool Exchange
Glasgow Central
depart
10:55: Motherwell; Carstairs (attach Edinburgh portion); Carlisle; Preston; Liverpool Ex.
12:00 (SO); Motherwell (u.); Carlisle; Lancaster; Preston; Burscough Jn (s.); Ormskirk (s.); Liverpool Ex
13:45; Motherwell; Carstairs (attach Ediburgh portion); Symington; Carlisle; Penrith; Oxenholme; Carnforth; Lancaster; Preston (detach Manchester portion); Burscough Jn; Ormskirk; Liverpool Ex.
16:05; Motherwell; Carstairs (attach Edinburgh portion); Beattock; Lockerbie; Carlisle; Preston (detach Manchester portion); Burscough Jn.; Ormskirk; Liverpool Ex.
Sundays
11:25; Motherwell; Carstairs (attach Edinburgh portion); Carlisle; Penrith; Oxenholme; Carnforth; Lancaster; Preston; Burscough Jn.; Ormskirk; Liverpool Ex.

To Liverpool Lime St from Glasgow Cen.
23:30; Motherwell; Carstairs (attach Edinburgh portion); Lockerbie; Carlisle; Penrith; Carnforth; Lancaster; Preston; Wihan NW (detach Manchester Ex. portion); St. Helens Shaw St; Liverpool Lime St (Dep. 23:40 on SuO)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(More years to follow, as time permits)
 

Bevan Price

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May 1968 to May 1969 Timetable.
Liverpool Exchange dep.

0900; (Manchester portion ran separately on Summer Saturdays). Stops at Preston; Lancaster; Carlisle; Lockerbie ££; Beattock ££;
Carstairs (Edinburgh portion detached); Motherwell; Glasgow Cen. / Edinburgh Waverley. (££ - No stop on Summer Saturdays)
13:35 (FSO, Summer only); Preston (u., attach Manchester portion); Lancaster; Penrith; Carlisle; Carstairs (detach Glasgow portion) ; Edinburgh. (Glasgow portion from Manchester Vic.)
17:45; Preston (u., attach Manchester portion); Lancaster; Carlisle; Carstairs (detach Edinburgh portion); Motherwell; Glasgow Cen. / Edinburgh Waverley.

Sundays
09:55; Preston; Carlisle (diverted via S&C); Lockerbie; Beattock; Carstairs (detach Edinburgh portion); Motherwell; Glasgow Cen. / Edinburgh

Sleeper (daily)
Liverpool Lime St. dep 00:55; St. Helens Shaw St.; Wigan NW (attach Manchester Vic. portion); Preston; Penrith; Carlisle; Lockerbie; Beattock;
Carstairs (detach Edinburgh portion); Motherwell (s.); Glasgow Cen

Southbound
Glasgow Central dep.

08:25; Carstairs (attach Edinburgh portion); Carlisle; Lancaster; Preston (detach Manchester portion); Ormskirk; Liverpool Ex.
11:35 (Summer only); Carstairs (attach Edinburgh portion); Carlisle; Penrith; Oxenholme; Carnforth; Lancaster; Preston; Liverpool Ex.
14:00 (FSO, Summer only); Motherwell; Carstairs (attach Edinburgh portion); Carlisle; Penrith; Oxenholme; Carnforth; Lancaster; Preston (detach Manchester portion);
Burscough Jn.; Ormskirk; Liverpool Ex.
17:23/ (17:20 Edinburgh); Carstairs; Lockerbie; Carlisle; Lancaster; Preston (detach Manchester portion); Liverpool Ex.

Sundays
11:50; Motherwell; Carstairs (attach Edinburgh portion); Beattock; Lockerbie; Carlisle; Preston (diverted via S&C., detach Manchester portion); Ormskirk; Liverpool Ex.

Sleeper (daily)
23:55; Motherwell (u.); Carstairs (attach Edinburgh portion); Lockerbie; Carlisle; Penrith; Carnforth; Lancaster; Preston; Wigan NW (detach Manchester Vic. portion);
St. Helens Shaw St.; Liverpool Lime St.
 

Bevan Price

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1970s.
Liverpool to Scotland services were moved from Exchange to Lime Street with the May 1970 timetable change. This added about 15 minutes to the Liverpool / Preston journey time, all trains calling at Wigan North Western. Although the actual times changed, the service pattern remained similar to what had served Liverpool Exhange. From May 1977, initially one train each way gained an additional stop at St. Helens Junction. After electrification, the early afternoon summer FSO service was changed to run all year, daily (except Su). Also, from May 1977, a few trains were adjusted to run non-stop between Lime Street & Preston.

The Liverpool/Manchester - Scotland overnight sleeper last appeared in the 1969/1970 timetable. Instead, there was an overnight (seating only) summer saturday service - not stopping at St. Helens, but that, too, ceased after the 1973/1974 timetable.
 

Lloyds siding

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Am I right in thinking that in even earlier years some of the trains from Liverpool Exchange were to Glasgow St Enochs (rather than Central)?
 

70014IronDuke

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Am I right in thinking that in even earlier years some of the trains from Liverpool Exchange were to Glasgow St Enochs (rather than Central)?

Probably when the L&Y sent through carriages via Blackburn and Hellifield to hitch onto the Leeds/St Pancras - Glasgow trains.
That must have been some journey, considering by the time you got hitched on at Hellifield, you could probably have been passing Penrith in the same time as if you'd gone to Preston and taken the LNW.
 

Bevan Price

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Probably when the L&Y sent through carriages via Blackburn and Hellifield to hitch onto the Leeds/St Pancras - Glasgow trains.
That must have been some journey, considering by the time you got hitched on at Hellifield, you could probably have been passing Penrith in the same time as if you'd gone to Preston and taken the LNW.

They were Midland Railway trains, using running powers over the L&YR between Liverpool Exchange, Blackburn & Hellifield.
Bradshaw 1885 reprint shows 3 trains daily,
Liverpool Ex. dep. 09:35, 13:40 & 17:47, arrive Carlisle 12:55, 17:10 & 20:55, and Glasgow St. Enoch 15:45, 19:45 & 23:25.
Plus a similar number of southbound trains.

From Liverpool Lime St. dep. 09:40, an LNWR train reached Carlisle at 13:05 and Glasgow Cen. at 15:50 - so not much difference in time between the two routes.
 

70014IronDuke

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They were Midland Railway trains, using running powers over the L&YR between Liverpool Exchange, Blackburn & Hellifield.
Bradshaw 1885 reprint shows 3 trains daily,
Liverpool Ex. dep. 09:35, 13:40 & 17:47, arrive Carlisle 12:55, 17:10 & 20:55, and Glasgow St. Enoch 15:45, 19:45 & 23:25.
Plus a similar number of southbound trains.

From Liverpool Lime St. dep. 09:40, an LNWR train reached Carlisle at 13:05 and Glasgow Cen. at 15:50 - so not much difference in time between the two routes.

Ah, I hadn't realised they were Midland trains thank you. Anyway, still Liverpool-Glasgow through services.

Gosh, those timings on the WCML are abysmal. Were they all shacks Preston - Carlisle or something?
 

Senex

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Ah, I hadn't realised they were Midland trains thank you. Anyway, still Liverpool-Glasgow through services.

Gosh, those timings on the WCML are abysmal. Were they all shacks Preston - Carlisle or something?
Remember that for a long period in the nineteenth century, and especially under the chairmanship of Richard Moon, the LNW did not even try to exploit speed — the company was well known for being slow and stately! The Midland came in as a competing company for the Scottish traffic, just as it had done for the Manchester traffic, and did try to compete on time, despite its longer and harder routes. The Liverpool trains ran via the direct line at Farington, avoiding a reversal at Preston, and combined with a Manchester portion at Hellifield before making a fast run on to Carlisle and Scotland.
 

Mag_seven

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I recall a Glasgow - Liverpool service using a rake of mark one stock roundabout the early eighties. I can't recall however if there was an Edinburgh portion.

* Around 1976 or 1977, soon after introduction of Mk.3 hauled stock on the WCML, a "premium" Euston/Glasgow set was deployed on the morning Manchester - Glasgow train and the last evening Glasgow - Manchester Vic., giving the incongruous sight of a shiny, brand-new train of Mk.3s at the run-down "old" Manchester Victoria.

There was something similar round about 1987 when the first Manchester-Glasgow service (which may have started back at Stockport) was formed of a "full" WCML Mark 3 set. On arrival at Glasgow Central round about mid-day it then formed a Glasgow Euston service.
 

70014IronDuke

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Remember that for a long period in the nineteenth century, and especially under the chairmanship of Richard Moon, the LNW did not even try to exploit speed — the company was well known for being slow and stately! The Midland came in as a competing company for the Scottish traffic, just as it had done for the Manchester traffic, and did try to compete on time, despite its longer and harder routes. The Liverpool trains ran via the direct line at Farington, avoiding a reversal at Preston, and combined with a Manchester portion at Hellifield before making a fast run on to Carlisle and Scotland.

If I'd been a shareholder in the LNW back in the day, I'd have motioned to have Moon replaced! Fancy allowing the Midland to come anywhere near the same schedule when it had to go via Hellifield and over Ais Gill (an extra 45 miles, at a guess?) and then via the G&SW to boot.
 

Grumpy Git

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If I'd been a shareholder in the LNW back in the day, I'd have motioned to have Moon replaced! Fancy allowing the Midland to come anywhere near the same schedule when it had to go via Hellifield and over Ais Gill (an extra 45 miles, at a guess?) and then via the G&SW to boot.

Back in the day when not everywhere was run by the bean counters.
 
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