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Storm Dennis disruption 15th & 16th

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ChiefPlanner

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It’s also having an effect on the Marches line south of Abergavenny and in the Glamorgan Valleys.

Very much so - and there is some tremendous work going on in horrible conditions to try and run what they can ....much respect for the staff and services involved. Pontypridd and Nantgarw areas really under pressure and easily viewed on media channels etc. The North and West is under considerable stress one gathers.
 
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duffield

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I feel sorry for the passengers on 1M98 1445 Cardiff Central to Nottingham yesterday. They almost got to Gloucester, stopped by flooding, eventually reversed and got back to Newport 4 hours after they left...
 

theironroad

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I saw that on a local FB page, did not realise that it was the railway

You're not the only one. When it first appeared , many train crew gave it a quick glance on a phone screen and thought it was a road lane flooded, only when someone zoomed in and saw the tracks at the top of the pic, did it dawn the flooding there is the worst that has been seen for a long time.
 

Bletchleyite

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Fancy setting up your own bus company and taking responsibility for putting your staff and assets (not to mention customers) out in such dangerous conditions?

Clearly Mr Souter's successors were happy to do so. The conditions were not "dangerous" between Preston and Lancaster. The railway was flooded, the M6 was not. It was windy, but not excessively so. (If you want excessively windy, try the A5 in Snowdonia on Saturday evening - now that would have been dangerous to run high sided vehicles on).

Non-provision in the Welsh case was probably justified. In the North West case it was excuses. I think you would generally find the commercial bus companies making more of a sound judgement as if they aren't running they aren't earning, so they'll only pull buses in if it's actually dangerous.
 

Bletchleyite

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I feel sorry for the passengers on 1M98 1445 Cardiff Central to Nottingham yesterday. They almost got to Gloucester, stopped by flooding, eventually reversed and got back to Newport 4 hours after they left...

You don't have to spend long on Flyertalk or PPRuNe to find plenty of airline examples of that sort of thing too! :) Probably far more often than on rail, though I can again cite my example of my journey on a LNR train which called at Harrow and Wealdstone 3 times :)
 

philthetube

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Clearly Mr Souter's successors were happy to do so. The conditions were not "dangerous" between Preston and Lancaster. The railway was flooded, the M6 was not. It was windy, but not excessively so. (If you want excessively windy, try the A5 in Snowdonia on Saturday evening - now that would have been dangerous to run high sided vehicles on).

Non-provision in the Welsh case was probably justified. In the North West case it was excuses. I think you would generally find the commercial bus companies making more of a sound judgement as if they aren't running they aren't earning, so they'll only pull buses in if it's actually dangerous.

Imagine you are a coach driver, imagine that you are happily at home with your family, your wife is cooking the sunday lunch, if you can honestly tell me that if your boss cally you to go out in this horrible weather to drive a rrb you are going to jump up, say yes sir, and get in your car and drive, possibly on flooded roads with low flying branches, to drive a rrb.

If you could honestly say yes, I would do that then I have some respect for your views, if no then you need to wonder why you expect from others what you would not do yourself.

You also have to wonder why an operator would put out a £300.000+ coach in that weather in order to make a few extra quid?
 

Bletchleyite

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Imagine you are a coach driver, imagine that you are happily at home with your family, your wife is cooking the sunday lunch, if you can honestly tell me that if your boss cally you to go out in this horrible weather to drive a rrb you are going to jump up, say yes sir, and get in your car and drive, possibly on flooded roads with low flying branches, to drive a rrb.

Every man has his price. If nobody will go out, up the pay and eventually someone will.

If you could honestly say yes, I would do that then I have some respect for your views, if no then you need to wonder why you expect from others what you would not do yourself.

Well, I was in the hills (ish) on Saturday in pretty awful weather, so I think it's fair to say that if the money was right yes, I would.

You also have to wonder why an operator would put out a £300.000+ coach in that weather in order to make a few extra quid?

Because they need to make money to keep their business going! But as I said, you keep referring to awful weather, in Lancaster, Preston and between the two it really wasn't, it was a bit windy, that's all. The actual full-on storm had long died down by Sunday afternoon/evening in those parts. By then the weather was not a lot nastier than it is in Bletchley at this very second (not nice to walk your dog in, but not dangerous), and so far as I'm aware all public transport is operating.

There were issues in the Lakes, so they may have been unable to serve Oxenholme and possibly Penrith, but they could certainly have safely operated Preston-Lancaster shuttles, and probably served Carlisle too. The M6 was open and as I said NatEx and Megabus were so far as I am aware operating.

But the way things seem to have gone over the last 5 years or so (and it does seem to be that recent - this was the first time I have ever, in my entire life, been totally stranded by the railway in that manner) is that if train services are disrupted because of poor weather, RRBs are optional, regardless of the actual risk posed. And I call that out as unacceptable.

FWIW, the Avanti station staff at Lancaster were very clearly saying that "the decision has been made not to operate buses". Not "we can't get any", but "it has been decided not to". I suspect they might not have agreed with the decision hence framing it in that manner. The best customer service was to be found in the Costa whose staff were (after I pointed it out to them) advising use of the 40 to Preston.
 

Robertj21a

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Imagine you are a coach driver, imagine that you are happily at home with your family, your wife is cooking the sunday lunch, if you can honestly tell me that if your boss cally you to go out in this horrible weather to drive a rrb you are going to jump up, say yes sir, and get in your car and drive, possibly on flooded roads with low flying branches, to drive a rrb.

If you could honestly say yes, I would do that then I have some respect for your views, if no then you need to wonder why you expect from others what you would not do yourself.

You also have to wonder why an operator would put out a £300.000+ coach in that weather in order to make a few extra quid?

Well said. There seems to be an assumption that bus/coach operators will always go out regardless in order to do emergency RR work. I certainly wouldn't rush to send out my vehicles, and staff.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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There have been threads over the years on this website that discuss the possibility of re-opening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth former rail line. Can anyone say how the areas passed through by that particular line have fared over the last two days.
 

GusB

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Perhaps the decision not to run buses was taken because the TOCs were advised by RRB operators that they wouldn't be able to provide enough cover. I wouldn't want to be out there driving a car tonight, let alone a vehicle that's 3.5m high.

If the advice is "Expect Disruption" or "Do Not Travel". you have absolutely nothing to complain about if you cannot complete your journey as planned. To expect others to go out and put themselves at risk in order that you may complete a non-essential journey is totally unacceptable, and rather selfish, IMHO.
 

Anonymous10

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Perhaps the decision not to run buses was taken because the TOCs were advised by RRB operators that they wouldn't be able to provide enough cover. I wouldn't want to be out there driving a car tonight, let alone a vehicle that's 3.5m high.

If the advice is "Expect Disruption" or "Do Not Travel". you have absolutely nothing to complain about if you cannot complete your journey as planned. To expect others to go out and put themselves at risk in order that you may complete a non-essential journey is totally unacceptable, and rather selfish, IMHO.
Not to mention due to the weather the safest thing for you to do is to stay in a hotel or whatever and journey on Tomorrow
 

Bletchleyite

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Not to mention due to the weather the safest thing for you to do is to stay in a hotel or whatever and journey on Tomorrow

Funny that the railway wasn't offering to pay for that, isn't it, despite what the NRCoT said. (And yes, there were plenty of rooms available in Lancaster on the day concerned, the Travelodge said they were nearly empty for one).
 

snail

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Clearly Mr Souter's successors were happy to do so. The conditions were not "dangerous" between Preston and Lancaster. The railway was flooded, the M6 was not. It was windy, but not excessively so.
You're basing your argument on an hourly double decker service between Preston and Lancaster being able to run along the A6. How many buses are needed to carry several train loads of passengers and where are they coming from? They don't only have to run up and down the M6 or A6 but get from their depots to the stations.
 

Bletchleyite

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Perhaps the decision not to run buses was taken because the TOCs were advised by RRB operators that they wouldn't be able to provide enough cover. I wouldn't want to be out there driving a car tonight, let alone a vehicle that's 3.5m high

That rather depends where you are in the UK. The bus service is, so far as I am aware, operating (as) to time (as it ever is) in MK this evening, because the weather is no worse than usual winter "squally showers". I'm sure there are places it's genuinely not safe. Between Lancaster and Preston last Sunday afternoon was not one such place, as if it was I'm sure Souterbus wouldn't have been out.

If the advice is "Expect Disruption" or "Do Not Travel". you have absolutely nothing to complain about if you cannot complete your journey as planned. To expect others to go out and put themselves at risk in order that you may complete a non-essential journey is totally unacceptable, and rather selfish, IMHO.

Going home is not a non-essential journey unless the railway is coughing up for hotels (despite NRCoT they were not doing so) and providing indemnity against loss of pay/being sacked due to non-attendance at work.

And nobody would have been "at risk" operating rail replacement buses between Preston and Lancaster any more than Stagecoach's staff were for operating their bus service, as they indeed did.
 

Bletchleyite

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You're basing your argument on an hourly double decker service between Preston and Lancaster being able to run along the A6. How many buses are needed to carry several train loads of passengers and where are they coming from? They don't only have to run up and down the M6 or A6 but get from their depots to the stations.

Things were quiet at that end of things; those with non-essential journeys were generally heeding the warnings. I suspect two coaches per Pendolino would have been plenty enough, potentially even one. Nobody other than a bus enthusiast chooses an awkward journey taking well over twice as long as usual if they aren't lacking in other sensible options.

I reckon Stagey themselves may have been able to do it from whatever depot operates the 40 - it got those out in the first place! Again, as regards staff, if you offer the right price you will get them.

It appears, however, that Avanti, Northern and TPE all chose not to attempt to obtain buses, not that they couldn't. Such a choice, without evidence of being unable to do so, should be heavily penalised.

FWIW, the railway lost £92.50 from me this weekend because of last week's debacle. I went by car instead (which didn't present any problems other than one minor diversion due to a road closure). I have always in the past been able to rely on them to get me to my destination eventually whatever the situation (other than advance-notified strikes), and trusted in the NRCoT that accommodation would be offered in the event of a failure to do so. That trust has been irrevocably broken. The trains operated, but I chose a mode of transport I could trust.
 
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GusB

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Going home is not a non-essential journey unless the railway is coughing up for hotels (despite NRCoT they were not doing so) and providing indemnity against loss of pay/being sacked due to non-attendance at work.
It is non-essential if you were warned from the outset that there would likely be disruption, yet continued to venture out despite the advice given. If I decided to venture out for a weekend, knowing full well that that there was a risk of being unable to get to work on time on Monday, I would be entirely responsible for the repercussions of my actions. I would hope that my employer would take into account any mitigating circumstances, but it doesn't change the fact that I ignored warnings that were issued a week before.
 

Bletchleyite

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It is non-essential if you were warned from the outset that there would likely be disruption, yet continued to venture out despite the advice given. If I decided to venture out for a weekend, knowing full well that that there was a risk of being unable to get to work on time on Monday, I would be entirely responsible for the repercussions of my actions. I would hope that my employer would take into account any mitigating circumstances, but it doesn't change the fact that I ignored warnings that were issued a week before.

Now what of someone who lives in Lancaster (say) and works temporarily in London. Would the railway be paying for the extra three nights hotel, food, laundry etc? (potentially four if the job was normally Monday to Thursday in London, Friday from home, as it often is)

Fundamentally if a service can be provided it needs to be. I maintain that this specific example was an excuse.

People in here have a very skewed opinion of why people travel and think people can just drop journeys because they feel like. I accept I could have dropped mine (or driven), however not everyone who was caught up in that mess had gone for a weekend in the Lakes, there are many reasons to travel.

Unless we are going to get to the point of declaration of a state of emergency by the Government and a national holiday, the service needs to operate. If it doesn't operate, people are going to buy cars.
 

Spartacus

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There have been threads over the years on this website that discuss the possibility of re-opening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth former rail line. Can anyone say how the areas passed through by that particular line have fared over the last two days.

The old road's flooded between Carmarthen and Abergwili, but that's an accepted flood plain, nothing unexpected there. Further East's been his worse, by and large, and as the Towy runs from the East it's come to a head around there. In the main the roads are higher than the railway used to be.
 

Glenn1969

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Northern closed the railway from Hebden Bridge to Rochdale/Burnley for 18hours from 5pm yesterday and didn't provide road transport due to predicted poor road conditions. In the end here things were not as bad as expected
 

GusB

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Now what of someone who lives in Lancaster (say) and works temporarily in London. Would the railway be paying for the extra three nights hotel, food, laundry etc? (potentially four if the job was normally Monday to Thursday in London, Friday from home, as it often is)

Fundamentally if a service can be provided it needs to be. I maintain that this specific example was an excuse.

People in here have a very skewed opinion of why people travel and think people can just drop journeys because they feel like. I accept I could have dropped mine (or driven), however not everyone who was caught up in that mess had gone for a weekend in the Lakes, there are many reasons to travel.

Unless we are going to get to the point of declaration of a state of emergency by the Government and a national holiday, the service needs to operate. If it doesn't operate, people are going to buy cars.
If the expenses are incurred as part of a work trip, I'd be expecting the employer to foot the bill.
 

dk1

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Northern closed the railway from Hebden Bridge to Rochdale/Burnley for 18hours from 5pm yesterday and didn't provide road transport due to predicted poor road conditions. In the end here things were not as bad as expected
I suppose it's just one of those things. Better safe than sorry.
 

dk1

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If the expenses are incurred as part of a work trip, I'd be expecting the employer to foot the bill.
My thoughts exactly. Any decent employer wouldn't even question this & pay up for their valued members of staff.
 

Anonymous10

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Funny that the railway wasn't offering to pay for that, isn't it, despite what the NRCoT said. (And yes, there were plenty of rooms available in Lancaster on the day concerned, the Travelodge said they were nearly empty for one).
They might not pay the night but they have to pay for your ticket if they cancel your train and give u no other options
 
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