They're only getting 6 720s, so that'll only replace the 387s. The 357s are staying with C2C.Are C2C keeping their 357 units and using the new 720 trains to displace the 387 trains?
Or are the 720 trains replacing the 357's as well?
AFAIK, the 387's are staying with c2c, to keep within the original franchise terms & conditions.They're only getting 6 720s, so that'll only replace the 387s. The 357s are staying with C2C.
That's in line with my understanding. IIRC the 357s have pretty favourable lease terms.They're only getting 6 720s, so that'll only replace the 387s. The 357s are staying with C2C.
They're only getting 6 720s, so that'll only replace the 387s. The 357s are staying with C2C.
I am guessing (but not aware of anything official) that the 387s will go to GWR as they seem to be struggling to operate full service since loosing some to Heathrow Express.
I am guessing (but not aware of anything official) that the 387s will go to GWR as they seem to be struggling to operate full service since losing some to Heathrow Express.
I think the numerous delays to the arrival of the Class 769 fleet may well be a contributing factor.
I think with the transfer of the Reading <-> Paddington stoppers to TfL Rail, the GWR Class 387 fleet is no longer overstretched. (I'm sure @ClarenceYard will be able to confirm.) Capacity-wise, transferring the c2c 387s to GWR would be a massive overprovision, at least until the wires reach Oxford.
Personally, I'd like the Class 387s to go to Southern, so that they can start to withdraw either their 313s or their 455s, (although I accept that six units is not going to make that much difference).
On the Marshlink/Uckfield bi-mode thread battery trains were ruled out I believe (or at least Electrostars that have pantographs were; they are too heavy and there's not enough space for batteries).I wonder if these 387s could form the base of a the Uckfield bi-mode conversion? Just thinking out loud really.
c2c's 387s are a fleet too small and ordered at the wrong time.
The c2c units (along with the majority of the GWR units) came from a speculative order that Porterbrook placed for 20 additional units. These followed on from the Gatwick Express order and was the only way that c2c could get new stock into service quickly.
I'm sure it would be highly unlikely, but I always thought it logical to send the 387s to great northern, then replace the 365s with similar, cascaded 379s from Greater Anglia/Stansted Express. Then they'd have an all modern electrostar fleet (I believe the 379s should he 110mph capable with some modification). Maybe transfer the GN longer distance services to LNER whilst they're at it!new fleet to get rid of the 365s
The problem with that (though this is heading off-topic) is that what do you do with the rest of the 379s? You've then turned a 365 microfleet into a 379 microfleet...I'm sure it would be highly unlikely, but I always thought it logical to send the 387s to great northern, then replace the 365s with similar, cascaded 379s from Greater Anglia/Stansted Express. Then they'd have an all modern electrostar fleet (I believe the 379s should he 110mph capable with some modification). Maybe transfer the GN longer distance services to LNER whilst they're at it!
correct me if I'm wrong though, they've only got 21 365s left? surely there are enough 379s to replace all of them? so we end up with an enlarged and improved great northern fleet with no needed for the not particularly well liked 700 units on great northern. I almost think that should happen regardless of the c2c class 387s next move - I quite like them as a frequent c2c passenger (they do suit their faster, non-stop services quite well in my opinion with much better leg room than a 357 for a long journey)The problem with that (though this is heading off-topic) is that what do you do with the rest of the 379s? You've then turned a 365 microfleet into a 379 microfleet...
Yes, too many, is my point. What do you do with the rest?correct me if I'm wrong though, they've only got 21 365s left? surely there are enough 379s to replace all of them? so we end up with an enlarged and improved great northern fleet with no needed for the not particularly well liked 700 units on great northern. I almost think that should happen regardless of the c2c class 387s next move - I quite like them as a frequent c2c passenger (they do suit their faster, non-stop services quite well in my opinion with much better leg room than a 357 for a long journey)
Yes, too many, is my point. What do you do with the rest?
I think the general consensus is the 387s are a bit 'too nice' for c2c - not that their passengers are undeserving (I used the line daily for a few years), but that for that sort of route, the 387s are definitely overspecified with their tables, carpets etc.
correct me if I'm wrong though, they've only got 21 365s left? surely there are enough 379s to replace all of them? so we end up with an enlarged and improved great northern fleet with no needed for the not particularly well liked 700 units on great northern. I almost think that should happen regardless of the c2c class 387s next move - I quite like them as a frequent c2c passenger (they do suit their faster, non-stop services quite well in my opinion with much better leg room than a 357 for a long journey)
30x379 would replace 21x365 for sure, but you then end up with 9x379 spare. This isn't enough to replace the 700/0 on the King's Cross to Cambridge service as that requires a minimum of 16x units. It still doesn't work even if you take the 6x LTS 387s.
I'd say anything is better than nothing though - there's not much existing stock available that can really work that well, nothing with 357/0 and 357/2 seating density. However, we're all used to 2+2 seating on the 357/3s at this point, so I still maintain extending the 387/3s leases at c2c would be a beneficial move, purely on that they're better than nothing They're arguably better for standing on too, because they have proper grab handles all the way along the coach that everyone can reach. They would still be a major upgrade on an 8 car 357, which are all too frequently swarmed in peaks - the loop lines absolutely need 12 car services, but the 357s can't be used so something has to be (no plans for DOO screens for the loops)The problem is, c2c has a real capacity crisis going on - not helped by rather dubious timetabling but it really is a case of needing 12-car 357s everywhere, or their equivalent which is what the 720s are for. If those 12-car trains had lower capacity due to 2+2 seating with armrests, it would defeat the object. Part of the capacity crisis is of course Greater Anglia refugees from when their service was so poor and maybe in a few years' time when their 720s are bedded in some people may switch back but given the more expensive fares, I don't imagine it would be many.
If there's room to operate them alongside the 720s, then yes, I see no harm in it, other than an increasingly diversified fleet, but I didn't get the impression that was the case.I'd say anything is better than nothing though - there's not much existing stock available that can really work that well, nothing with 357/0 and 357/2 seating density. However, we're all used to 2+2 seating on the 357/3s at this point, so I still maintain extending the 387/3s leases at c2c would be a beneficial move, purely on that they're better than nothing
iirc they should have the depot capacity for them to be kept alongside the 6 720s - east ham is tight but shoeburyness should have the stabling for themIf there's room to operate them alongside the 720s, then yes, I see no harm in it, other than an increasingly diversified fleet, but I didn't get the impression that was the case.
but what about actually having that many diagrams in service? I don't think there's much of a unit shortage at c2c, no point having extra units if they can't be allocated to services.iirc they should have the depot capacity for them to be kept alongside the 6 720s - east ham is tight but shoeburyness should have the stabling for them.
they current use every single 357 at the moment though, bar one for maintenance. I'd say there's a pretty major shortage! There are still even 4 car services in the outer parts of peak, which really really need to be 8 carbut what about actually having that many diagrams in service? I don't think there's much of a unit shortage at c2c, no point having extra units if they can't be allocated to services.
the not particularly well liked 700 units on great northern
So what does the travelling public actually gain from seeing the Class 365s replaced by Class 387s and/or 379s?