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Are C2C Keeping Their 357 Units?
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DanNCL
Established Member
They're only getting 6 720s, so that'll only replace the 387s. The 357s are staying with C2C.
delticdave
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AFAIK, the 387's are staying with c2c, to keep within the original franchise terms & conditions.
Speed43125
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That's in line with my understanding. IIRC the 357s have pretty favourable lease terms.
chris11256
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The 357s are staring at least until the end of the franchise. They confirmed at passenger panel that they extended the lease on the 357s until 2029.
I’m fairly sure 387s are going when the new stock arrives next year.
I’m fairly sure 387s are going when the new stock arrives next year.
Snow1964
Established Member
It’s replace the 387s and increase the fleet size
The six new 320s are 10 long cars each, so equivalent to a 12car 387 in length
I am guessing (but not aware of anything official) that the 387s will go to GWR as they seem to be struggling to operate full service since loosing some to Heathrow Express.
D365
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I think the numerous delays to the arrival of the Class 769 fleet may well be a contributing factor.
starlightEXPRESS
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I think with the transfer of the Reading <-> Paddington stoppers to TfL Rail, the GWR Class 387 fleet is no longer overstretched. (I'm sure @ClarenceYard will be able to confirm.) Capacity-wise, transferring the c2c 387s to GWR would be a massive overprovision, at least until the wires reach Oxford.
Personally, I'd like the Class 387s to go to Southern, so that they can start to withdraw either their 313s or their 455s, (although I accept that six units is not going to make that much difference).
I wonder if these 387s could form the base of a the Uckfield bi-mode conversion? Just thinking out loud really.
The trouble with the c2c 387s is that they have a lot of sister fleets but none where they are needed. When the 720s (as I am told they'll be classified as) come the 387s could go to Great Northern to replace 365s, but then they'd have an even bigger microfleet of them, so they might as well get a new fleet to get rid of the 365s. GWR doesn't need any new Electrostars with Crossrail opening. Southeastern wouldn't want 110mph trains that are very different mechanically to their other Electrostars, and Southern have no need for 6 trains that don't work with any other trains in their fleet (unless you count GatEx, but I doubt they need new trains). c2c's 387s are a fleet too small and ordered at the wrong time.
On the Marshlink/Uckfield bi-mode thread battery trains were ruled out I believe (or at least Electrostars that have pantographs were; they are too heavy and there's not enough space for batteries).
D365
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The Class 379 IPEMU gained 8 tonnes through the addition of batteries and control equipment. Quite substantial when it comes to rolling stock dynamics.
The c2c units (along with the majority of the GWR units) came from a speculative order that Porterbrook placed for 20 additional units. These followed on from the Gatwick Express order and was the only way that c2c could get new stock into service quickly.
The c2c units (along with the majority of the GWR units) came from a speculative order that Porterbrook placed for 20 additional units. These followed on from the Gatwick Express order and was the only way that c2c could get new stock into service quickly.
It was all a bit of a mess at the time, but the majority of GWRs units came from a standalone order that bombardier accepted after declaring they wouldn't take any more orders for electrostars. Going by what I had noted down, 8 GWR units came as options from the initial order, 14 came from the speculative order, and 23 were from the subsequent final order.
357 LTSRail
Member
I'm sure it would be highly unlikely, but I always thought it logical to send the 387s to great northern, then replace the 365s with similar, cascaded 379s from Greater Anglia/Stansted Express. Then they'd have an all modern electrostar fleet (I believe the 379s should he 110mph capable with some modification). Maybe transfer the GN longer distance services to LNER whilst they're at it!
samuelmorris
Established Member
The problem with that (though this is heading off-topic) is that what do you do with the rest of the 379s? You've then turned a 365 microfleet into a 379 microfleet...
357 LTSRail
Member
correct me if I'm wrong though, they've only got 21 365s left? surely there are enough 379s to replace all of them? so we end up with an enlarged and improved great northern fleet with no needed for the not particularly well liked 700 units on great northern. I almost think that should happen regardless of the c2c class 387s next move - I quite like them as a frequent c2c passenger (they do suit their faster, non-stop services quite well in my opinion with much better leg room than a 357 for a long journey)
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samuelmorris
Established Member
Yes, too many, is my point. What do you do with the rest?
I think the general consensus is the 387s are a bit 'too nice' for c2c - not that their passengers are undeserving (I used the line daily for a few years), but that for that sort of route, the 387s are definitely overspecified with their tables, carpets etc.
357 LTSRail
Member
Well, if there's no scope for improving great northern service lengths and frequencies (I've seen awful overcrowding, even at weekends so I surely hope so) or relocating any thameslink services so that all 379s could be used, then I'm not sure. All I will say is that I'd much rather have 365s not in use than 379s not in use (leasing costs is another matter beyond my speculation of course!)
Ironically I feel like c2c could do with some of that stock. The 6 720s feel like a very small increase to me, especially with the 387s leaving, passenger numbers going up and 357 reliability dwindling (although I agree, the interior spec for the 387s and 379s is a little over the top for c2c, I'm always hearing passengers comment how they "wish they'd do more of these trains").
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bramling
Veteran Member
The numbers don't quite add up.
30x379 would replace 21x365 for sure, but you then end up with 9x379 spare. This isn't enough to replace the 700/0 on the King's Cross to Cambridge service as that requires a minimum of 16x units. It still doesn't work even if you take the 6x LTS 387s.
You *could* replace the 27x Gatwick 387/2s with 30x379, and transfer 27x 387/2 plus the 6x LTS 387 to GN making a fleet of 33x 387, but this still isn't enough to oust the 700/0s.
Whichever way one does it, a microfleet still occurs.
A further complication is that replacing the GN 365s with Electrostars means a reduction in seats on key peak services.
357 LTSRail
Member
Argh that is a shame. Would there be scope for GN to have 379s, 387s (current and c2c) and (slightly fewer number of) 700s? I suppose that does add some complexity, but also reduces some i.e. no more networkers. I wonder what the seating difference is between a 365 and a 379 and a 700 - would be interested if there is a net gain or loss overall with some 700a and 365 diagrams becoming 379 (at least average age, probably reliability and journey times would be reduce).
samuelmorris
Established Member
The problem is, c2c has a real capacity crisis going on - not helped by rather dubious timetabling but it really is a case of needing 12-car 357s everywhere, or their equivalent which is what the 720s are for. If those 12-car trains had lower capacity due to 2+2 seating with armrests, it would defeat the object. Part of the capacity crisis is of course Greater Anglia refugees from when their service was so poor and maybe in a few years' time when their 720s are bedded in some people may switch back but given the more expensive fares, I don't imagine it would be many.
357 LTSRail
Member
I'd say anything is better than nothing though - there's not much existing stock available that can really work that well, nothing with 357/0 and 357/2 seating density. However, we're all used to 2+2 seating on the 357/3s at this point, so I still maintain extending the 387/3s leases at c2c would be a beneficial move, purely on that they're better than nothing They're arguably better for standing on too, because they have proper grab handles all the way along the coach that everyone can reach. They would still be a major upgrade on an 8 car 357, which are all too frequently swarmed in peaks - the loop lines absolutely need 12 car services, but the 357s can't be used so something has to be (no plans for DOO screens for the loops)
samuelmorris
Established Member
If there's room to operate them alongside the 720s, then yes, I see no harm in it, other than an increasingly diversified fleet, but I didn't get the impression that was the case.
357 LTSRail
Member
iirc they should have the depot capacity for them to be kept alongside the 6 720s - east ham is tight but shoeburyness should have the stabling for them
samuelmorris
Established Member
but what about actually having that many diagrams in service? I don't think there's much of a unit shortage at c2c, no point having extra units if they can't be allocated to services.
357 LTSRail
Member
they current use every single 357 at the moment though, bar one for maintenance. I'd say there's a pretty major shortage! There are still even 4 car services in the outer parts of peak, which really really need to be 8 car
...are meant to be diverted through the Thameslink tunnels eventually so probably best not to replace them.
D365
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So what does the travelling public actually gain from seeing the Class 365s replaced by Class 387s and/or 379s?
bramling
Veteran Member
Air conditioning and full-sized tables, at a cost of lost seats.
At present 365s and 387s on GN are timed the same, so there’s no immediate performance benefit. GPS measurements show little difference in speed profile between 365, 387 and 700 - generally the 365 will take a little while longer to get from 95 mph to 100 mph but that’s about it.
The TOC would gain some slight benefit in one less fleet of trains to maintain and train on, and an end to platform-mounted dispatch.
Wivenswold
Established Member
When I worked on LTS we had at, one point, 92 4 car EMUs all of which could be accommodated in sidings, so there's your baseline capacity. Obviously having fixed 10 car units (though equivalent to 12 car length) provides stabling challenges due to their inflexibility. Each of those 92 units would have seating for at least 300 passengers so the loss of capacity over the last 32 years has been huge while housing along the loop has trebled.
The 6 720s will address some of the issues but I think something more radical may be required for the line if it is to cope with further development along the Thames "Gateway". However, that also has to be balanced against big changes in passengers flows over the next few years as remote working becomes more popular. The peaks will be a different animal by 2030. Maybe by then 2 + 2 will be appropriate for some longer services and there will be space for an onboard Costa Coffee carriage in standee, tip-up seat sections of the 10 car units. Think big.
The 6 720s will address some of the issues but I think something more radical may be required for the line if it is to cope with further development along the Thames "Gateway". However, that also has to be balanced against big changes in passengers flows over the next few years as remote working becomes more popular. The peaks will be a different animal by 2030. Maybe by then 2 + 2 will be appropriate for some longer services and there will be space for an onboard Costa Coffee carriage in standee, tip-up seat sections of the 10 car units. Think big.
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