• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Storm Dennis disruption 15th & 16th

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If a threat to life warning is issued and people ignore Do Not Travel warnings 48+ hours in advance, that's a different kettle of fish. Of course, as I explained, some circumstances are different. However, you can't tell me that all those people who chose to travel last Sunday needed to and couldn't have traveled the day before or after. It's nonsense - some people simply don't think that the advice given applies to them and for them I have no sympathy. It seems too many are quite happy to put the safety of others at risk.

No, all of them probably didn't need to. But some clearly did need to.

It also depends what you mean by "need to".

The example about poorly equipped hillwalkers on Ben Nevis is of no relevance at all, and that example has been written in a manner that suggests the poster doesn't understand how risk is handled in outdoor activities.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
What if alternative transport is unavailable, and accommodation is full ?

Then the railway has at least tried. They seem to have tried neither of those proactively last weekend, at least at Lancaster.

A good example of this was during another storm a few years ago where Preston station allowed some people to sleep on the floor of the booking office as they were stranded overnight and hotels were all fully booked (with railway passengers) and they had exhausted the supply of alternative transport including taxis. Another example of the changing approach between VT and Avanti maybe?
 

Samuel88

On Moderation
Joined
20 Jan 2017
Messages
385
These operators should be fined heavily if they leave passengers stranded with no accommodation. A £1000 per passenger should sort the problem out in no time...
 

Ploughman

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
2,889
Location
Near where the 3 ridings meet
Anybody fancy a trip on a car ferry today?
CalMac crew praised for berthing lurching ferry at Ardrossan

The crew of a CalMac ferry have been praised for their skill as dramatic footage showed the vessel struggling to berth in stormy seas.

MV Caledonian Isles was trying to get into Ardrossan harbour during high winds on Friday.

Managing director Robbie Drummond said: "All credit to the skill of our masters and one to consider for those pressing CalMac to take more risk.

Safety of our passengers and crew is always our top priority.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-51522580
 

Mathew S

Established Member
Joined
7 Aug 2017
Messages
2,167
What if alternative transport is unavailable, and accommodation is full ?
Then the absolute last resort is to allow passengers to remain in a staffed station (yes, that means staff have to stay on too, it's up to TOCs to make provision for this kind of thing), with basic comforts provided free of charge - similar to how, in extremis, airports will allow stranded passengers to bed down in terminals. It's not ideal, but if there's genuinely no other option then it's better than nothing at all.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Then the absolute last resort is to allow passengers to remain in a staffed station (yes, that means staff have to stay on too, it's up to TOCs to make provision for this kind of thing), with basic comforts provided free of charge - similar to how, in extremis, airports will allow stranded passengers to bed down in terminals. It's not ideal, but if there's genuinely no other option then it's better than nothing at all.

Further on the Lancaster issue I understand that it ended up closed later on, possibly because staff couldn't/wouldn't get in. So failed on that count, too.

But as I mentioned there were plenty of hotel rooms, the Travelodge at least (about 5 minutes from the station) was not even nearly full, I talked to the staff about it. Sundays are the quietest nights for hotels, it's easy to get quite a lot of rooms, far easier than any other night.
 

Mathew S

Established Member
Joined
7 Aug 2017
Messages
2,167
Further on the Lancaster issue I understand that it ended up closed later on, possibly because staff couldn't/wouldn't get in. So failed on that count, too.

But as I mentioned there were plenty of hotel rooms, the Travelodge at least (about 5 minutes from the station) was not even nearly full, I talked to the staff about it. Sundays are the quietest nights for hotels, it's easy to get quite a lot of rooms, far easier than any other night.
Indeed. To be honest, there being no hotel rooms available at all should be a pretty unusual occurance, I would have thought, no matter what day off the week.

Interesting, on the staffing front, how often the weather's too bad for people to get in to work, but fine enough for those in work to get home. To be honest, if that happened with me, I'd be expected - quite rightly - to remain at my desk until someone could get in to relieve me.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Indeed. To be honest, there being no hotel rooms available at all should be a pretty unusual occurance, I would have thought, no matter what day off the week.

It would also be possible to free some up, as if people are stranded in a particular location odds on those who intended to get there to take those (booked) hotel rooms won't be able to get there either. So a few phone calls by the hotel to those customers would potentially pay dividends.
 

Max

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
5,457
Location
Cardiff
Based on my experience with GWR last night the railway really doesn't help itself. A platform full of passengers was waiting for the 1942 Cardiff service at BRI. The screen showed the service as 'on time', though with the train already 25 minutes overdue leaving Westbury this was clearly wrong. The train then disappeared off the screen altogether. I walked over to the barrier. The staff there knew nothing. I was directed to the ticket office, who also knew nothing about the status of the train and suggested taking the 2029 Leeds service to Parkway and changing there.

However, in the meantime, the Cardiff service departed Westbury 55 late. But the screens at BRI were not updated - the train effectively didn't exist. I checked again with a lady at the barrier, who honestly couldn't have been less helpful - refused to check the platform number and directed me to a long closed information office. Meanwhile, the Twitter team confirmed the train was definitely running and was booked from platform 5, so I walked back over there.

Another group of passengers had reassembled for the delayed service, where an older member of station staff was insistent it was cancelled and directing people via Parkway. I told him that this wasn't what NRE or GWR's Twitter had said. A few minutes later, a more senior member of staff came out (perhaps the on duty manager?) and promised to go and check what was going on with the train. Meanwhile, most other passengers had given up and took the train towards Parkway.

The manager did not come back and I could see on realtimetrains that the train was due any second, but there was still nothing on the screens. A quick check on Open Train Times mapping indicated the train had gone into 3, so I ran over (couple of other passengers in tow) and low and behold, it was the Cardiff service and was indeed running! The train departed with no announcements, nothing on the screens, with about 4 people on board.

Meanwhile, due to flooding between Swindon and BPW all trains were diverted via Bath, resulting in very long delays for the large number of passengers sent there by BRI staff. The first train was cancelled, and the second delayed by 30, thus resulting in a 2315 arrival (vs. c. 2030 booked, and our 2135 actual!).

I know station staff have a tough job during disruption, but I am honestly staggered by how unhelpful the staff were at Bristol last night. What struck me was the belligerence and unwillingness to look up information or even contact control to check the status of trains. Is this normal for this station?
 

Skimpot flyer

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2012
Messages
1,613
I reckon Stagey themselves may have been able to do it from whatever depot operates the 40 - it got those out in the first place! Again, as regards staff, if you offer the right price you will get them....
Bus operators are also commercial businesses. There comes a point where an inflated hourly rate offered to the driver would outweigh the monies received for operating the service. Well before that point would come a pay level that would mean you operate the service at minimal profit, whilst risking damage to your assets (bus and driver). It’s not nearly as simple ‘bung them enough money and someone will drive the bus’ !
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Bus operators are also commercial businesses. There comes a point where an inflated hourly rate offered to the driver would outweigh the monies received for operating the service. Well before that point would come a pay level that would mean you operate the service at minimal profit, whilst risking damage to your assets (bus and driver). It’s not nearly as simple ‘bung them enough money and someone will drive the bus’ !

The railway in effect isn't, though, and such costs could be passed on to them.
 

London Trains

Member
Joined
9 Oct 2017
Messages
910
Apparently theres flooding between Balham/ Streatham and Sutton meaning no services can run.

This is a bit surprising as it hasnt even rained today and the first few trains ran on time down the line?
 

43055

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
2,901
It's all very damp around Stafford. The 07:15 Birmingham to Glasgow just proceeded through the Stafford area quite slowly until Norton Bridge, lots of standing water on both sides of the line and it hasn't rained heavily for about 12 hours here.
In some places it won't be the rain but where the water is coming from other places/water courses.
In my local area (Willington/Tutbury) the flood warning website is predicting the river Trent to peak at 1800 tomorrow. Most of the fields and some roads in the area are still flooded.
 

jtuk

Member
Joined
4 Jun 2018
Messages
423
If a threat to life warning is issued and people ignore Do Not Travel warnings 48+ hours in advance, that's a different kettle of fish.

If they wanted to make a Do Not Travel warning have any meaning they could cancel all the trains in advance
 

Whisky Papa

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2019
Messages
394
If they wanted to make a Do Not Travel warning have any meaning they could cancel all the trains in advance

Like the pre-emptive cancellation of all services between Todmorden and Rochdale by 1700 on Saturday 15th, with no road replacement provided. No doubt it will be seen by some as an overreaction in hindsight, especially as the area escaped the worst of it on this occasion.
 

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,103
Location
Powys
Indeed. To be honest, there being no hotel rooms available at all should be a pretty unusual occurance, I would have thought, no matter what day off the week.

Interesting, on the staffing front, how often the weather's too bad for people to get in to work, but fine enough for those in work to get home. To be honest, if that happened with me, I'd be expected - quite rightly - to remain at my desk until someone could get in to relieve me.
But many safety related railway staff are not allowed to do that by law, having a maximum shift length of 12 hours plus having to have 12 hours between shifts.
I've been in exactly that situation and it ended up with the line being closed because the Box could not be manned.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Is there a recognised system in place that Stagecoach could have used to ensure that they were paid an 'exceptional' rate ?

Any company can pay their staff whatever they want to pay them provided it is in excess of the minimum wage and all relevant taxes etc are deducted.

It might be that a union agreement would preclude this, but I doubt it - who would complain about more money?
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,343
Any company can pay their staff whatever they want to pay them provided it is in excess of the minimum wage and all relevant taxes etc are deducted.

It might be that a union agreement would preclude this, but I doubt it - who would complain about more money?

You should get the relevant licenses and offer your services to coach operators to take out their oldest crates on RR duties in all weathers. You could make a very good living.
 

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,655
It is certainly foreseeable that weather of that nature occurs in the UK. It's not frequent (though we've been unlucky enough to have it two weeks running this year) but it is certainly foreseeable that it occurs (and will occur more due to climate change).

One thing that has largely not occurred due to that weather, though, is mass closure of hotels.

Mass closure of hotels. Really? I estimate that there are five times as many hotel rooms in Liverpool City Centre than twenty years ago.
 

Parham Wood

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2011
Messages
331
Based on my experience with GWR last night the railway really doesn't help itself. A platform full of passengers was waiting for the 1942 Cardiff service at BRI. The screen showed the service as 'on time', though with the train already 25 minutes overdue leaving Westbury this was clearly wrong. The train then disappeared off the screen altogether. I walked over to the barrier. The staff there knew nothing. I was directed to the ticket office, who also knew nothing about the status of the train and suggested taking the 2029 Leeds service to Parkway and changing there.

However, in the meantime, the Cardiff service departed Westbury 55 late. But the screens at BRI were not updated - the train effectively didn't exist. I checked again with a lady at the barrier, who honestly couldn't have been less helpful - refused to check the platform number and directed me to a long closed information office. Meanwhile, the Twitter team confirmed the train was definitely running and was booked from platform 5, so I walked back over there.

Another group of passengers had reassembled for the delayed service, where an older member of station staff was insistent it was cancelled and directing people via Parkway. I told him that this wasn't what NRE or GWR's Twitter had said. A few minutes later, a more senior member of staff came out (perhaps the on duty manager?) and promised to go and check what was going on with the train. Meanwhile, most other passengers had given up and took the train towards Parkway.

The manager did not come back and I could see on realtimetrains that the train was due any second, but there was still nothing on the screens. A quick check on Open Train Times mapping indicated the train had gone into 3, so I ran over (couple of other passengers in tow) and low and behold, it was the Cardiff service and was indeed running! The train departed with no announcements, nothing on the screens, with about 4 people on board.

Meanwhile, due to flooding between Swindon and BPW all trains were diverted via Bath, resulting in very long delays for the large number of passengers sent there by BRI staff. The first train was cancelled, and the second delayed by 30, thus resulting in a 2315 arrival (vs. c. 2030 booked, and our 2135 actual!).

I know station staff have a tough job during disruption, but I am honestly staggered by how unhelpful the staff were at Bristol last night. What struck me was the belligerence and unwillingness to look up information or even contact control to check the status of trains. Is this normal for this station?
This is terrible behaviour. I have no experience of staff at BTM so cannot comment whether this is abnormal or not. I would make a formal complaint to GWR and whoever runs the station. I would use the normal channels but also email directly the CEO of these organisations plus the rail regulator. From what I have read elsewhere in the forum it seems that the platform displays have some limitation when things go wrong. Why this should be I don't understand. If it is a bug then it should be fixed urgently. The whole point of platform information is to provide up to date information and there should be manual overrides if necessary. At least the station staff should be making announcements if the information displayed is incorrect.
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,645
If a rail company advertises that a rail-replacement bus service is running, then people will attempt to travel expecting to use it. Having train loads of passengers travelling from London and Scotland expecting to use a rail-replacement bus service for part of the route would cause great problems if the weather turned worse and the replacement buses had to be cancelled. I can therefore sympathise if a TOCs might chose not to advertise a rail-replacement if there is a likelihood of it having to be cancelled at short notice.

There are some significant differences between bus and train services:

1) Buses generally run in a more limited geographical area, so they can react quickly to a change in weather. If it looks like becoming too dangerous, or the roads are likely to become blocked, they can divert the buses, or in worst-case get them and their drivers back to safety fairly quickly. Trains generally run much longer routes, and it is harder to divert a train, or turn it back.

2) If a bus operator decides to suspend services, then you are stranded, with no right to compensation. At least with the train, you have fairly generous rights - although getting what you are entitled to may not always be as easy as it should be.

I was travelling on a Traws Cambria bus route on Friday. En-route, the driver received a message that the route ahead was blocked, and he would have to divert. Passengers for the stops being missed out were dropped off at the turning, and left to make their own way.
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,645
This is terrible behaviour. I have no experience of staff at BTM so cannot comment whether this is abnormal or not. I would make a formal complaint to GWR and whoever runs the station. I would use the normal channels but also email directly the CEO of these organisations plus the rail regulator. From what I have read elsewhere in the forum it seems that the platform displays have some limitation when things go wrong. Why this should be I don't understand. If it is a bug then it should be fixed urgently. The whole point of platform information is to provide up to date information and there should be manual overrides if necessary. At least the station staff should be making announcements if the information displayed is incorrect.
You are assuming that the station staff know the situation. With the kind of disruption experienced during the last couple of weekends, things become very dynamic. One of the hardest things in any disruption is getting all the necessary information out to all the necessary people, as it constantly changes, and staff keeping up-to-date with all the changes and their consequences. There must have been a reason why the train wasn't displayed or announced - perhaps Control didn't think they would be able to run it beyond Bristol. Would the OP have been happier if he had been advised to wait for this train, and it had then been terminated at Temple Meads, causing him to miss the Parkway train?

It is easy to look at it from one person's perspective, but there would have been hundreds of people at Temple Meads all making different journeys, all being impacted in different ways, with each situation constantly changing. What may be good advice now may be totally impractical in ten minutes time. Control do their best to get the information out as situations evolve, and the staff give the best advice they can based on the information that they receive. Expecting station staff to keep contacting Control for advice on individual journeys is ridiculous - Control would rapidly become swamped with queries and be unable to do their job - the whole system would come to a grinding halt.

The OP was offered advice that would have got him home. OK, as the situation evolved it may not have been the best advice, but it was still reasonable advice. I am afraid that some people have totally unrealistic expectations of what to expect during severe disruption - "I am making my particular journey, and I expect all rail staff that I may encounter to know how best to currently make that journey, factoring in all current and future disruptions". Never going to happen, get over it.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,343
The OP was offered advice that would have got him home. OK, as the situation evolved it may not have been the best advice, but it was still reasonable advice. I am afraid that some people have totally unrealistic expectations of what to expect during severe disruption - "I am making my particular journey, and I expect all rail staff that I may encounter to know how best to currently make that journey, factoring in all current and future disruptions". Never going to happen, get over it.

I don't think expecting the Cardiff train to be announced as it was sat in the platform ready to depart was unrealistic. I recall the station announcers at Temple Meads were always on the ball during disruption. I think they were located in the signal box and could see exactly what was going on.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Mass closure of hotels. Really? I estimate that there are five times as many hotel rooms in Liverpool City Centre than twenty years ago.

Not sure I understand your point, maybe I wasn't clear enough. My point was that only in the event of mass closures of hotels (which doesn't really happen) would there be problems getting rooms in this sort of situation. You'd only get that if the town itself was flooded, but then you're moving on from a lack of rail services to emergency services evacuation anyway, and while there was a bit of flooding in Lancaster that day it was only right down by the river, nothing like 2015 and nothing affecting the main roads.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
You are assuming that the station staff know the situation. With the kind of disruption experienced during the last couple of weekends, things become very dynamic. One of the hardest things in any disruption is getting all the necessary information out to all the necessary people, as it constantly changes, and staff keeping up-to-date with all the changes and their consequences. There must have been a reason why the train wasn't displayed or announced - perhaps Control didn't think they would be able to run it beyond Bristol. Would the OP have been happier if he had been advised to wait for this train, and it had then been terminated at Temple Meads, causing him to miss the Parkway train?

The thing to do in that case wouldn't have been to hide it on the PIS but to put a note on it "This train may not operate beyond Bristol TM due to X; passengers are advised to do Y".

If the train had disappeared from the PIS unintentionally, the best thing to do would be to get it put back on with such a note. If it disappeared intentionally, well, that was a bad plan. (I know there is the "only show what's not cancelled" mode, but that has to be accompanied by good staff advice on what's going on with specific trains from the staff view of the PIS, and if it was used it makes it quite important to clearly announce if a train is reinstated[1]).

I also can't see a reason not to announce a platform alteration, even if of an arrival they thought was cancelled there.

[1] I've seen this happen at MKC, where in an event of severe disruption an ECS had been quickly put into service, the number of times "Platform 6 for Wolverton and Northampton" was being shouted by anyone wearing a uniform left no doubt as to what was going on, even though it said "not in service" on the side[2] and the PIS was showing the automatic stand clear message.

[2] LNR (and LM before them) passengers are well versed in knowing that that is the same as blank, i.e. it simply conveys no information and does not actually indicate that a train is not in service, because it seems to be set automatically on arriving at the final destination and staff may not have had time to set it to something else yet.
 
Last edited:

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,514
Any chance we can split the general discussion out of the Storm Dennis stuff?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top