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How have the UK's least-liked trains given such reliable service?

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Mitchell Hurd

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Hello. I thought I'd create this thread and ask why the UK's least-liked trains have given such reliable service.

The trains I'm talking about are Pacers and Voyagers. I fully appreciate what both types are great at but I know there are many people who don't like them one bit. But I understand that both trains have given extremely reliable service, mechanically but how?

The Pacer I know is because of the re-engining and re-gearing.
 
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Neptune

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They’re not particularly hated for their engineering. It’s more to do with the interior ambience. Just because something is not liked doesn’t mean to say it’s impossible for it to actually be reliable.
 

Bletchleyite

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Because they are (originally with Voyagers, and after the mods with Pacers) well-designed below the solebar, just less so above it.

The Coradia units, particularly the 180s, are the opposite - they are nice, but the mechanical side is weak.
 
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They’re not particularly hated for their engineering. It’s more to do with the interior ambience. Just because something is not liked doesn’t mean to say it’s impossible for it to actually be reliable.

See I get that for pacers but am baffled by it when it comes to Voyagers. In my opinion when Voyagers aren't crowded (which admittedly isn't often) they are some of the most pleasant trains in the country to travel on. Certainly take one over an 80x. Besides, all trains seem awful when they're crowded.
 

EssexGonzo

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Least liked by whom? Enthusiast or normal passengers (i.e. 99.9% of travellers)?
 

EssexGonzo

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Oh, and by the way, 321s are my least liked and at this stage in their life, I wouldn't call them reliable judging by the short forms and cancellations.
 

bramling

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Hello. I thought I'd create this thread and ask why the UK's least-liked trains have given such reliable service.

The trains I'm talking about are Pacers and Voyagers. I fully appreciate what both types are great at but I know there are many people who don't like them one bit. But I understand that both trains have given extremely reliable service, mechanically but how?

The Pacer I know is because of the re-engining and re-gearing.

The MML Meridians don’t have same bad reputation as the Voyagers, and in fact the West Coast Voyagers don’t get slagged off like the XC ones.

Although the Voyager interior design isn’t wonderful on account of the poor space utilisation and cramped seating, as well as the toilet smells, the biggest issue seems to be the overcrowding on XC combined with the state then XC ones have been allowed to get in to through lack of care.
 

Spartacus

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Pacers: replaced engines, transmissions, doors, incidents of cardan shafts making a break for freedom with varying degrees of success, as well as one engine. Hardly the most reliable even now, especially the doors.
Voyagers were just a train that created problems that didn't previously exist, but which being 4 or 5 car tend to be able to keep going with certain problems when others wouldn't. Just don't mention Dawlish.
 

tbtc

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With Pacers, one reason might be *because* they are so low-tech - they are fairly simple trains mechanically, so there's a lot less to go wrong (compared to a modern unit with lots of additional features but sometimes additional features just means additional things to go wrong).

So there seems to be fewer reasons for a Pacer to be stuck in the depot, partly *because* they are such basic trains - and there's nothing wrong with a basic train - there's a need for simple units that can do the unglamorous short distance services, the "stoppers", the feeder trains - I wouldn't want to sit on one all the way from Sheffield to Manchester/ Leeds (which are services that Pacers ran for many years) but I'd be fine with them on a journey to somewhere like Rotherham.

In my opinion when Voyagers aren't crowded (which admittedly isn't often) they are some of the most pleasant trains in the country to travel on. Certainly take one over an 80x. Besides, all trains seem awful when they're crowded.

My opinion too.

Most people's problems with Voyagers are about the lack of seats (often the kind of people who like to believe that the majority of Cross Country services were full rake HSTs or trains of equivalent length and don't remember the 158s or the 47s hauling shorter rakes than that, but there we go...).

Voyagers are very reliable, they are designed to do a specific thing (fast acceleration, 125mph top speed) and they do that very well - it's just that there aren't enough coaches (and not enough seats in the coaches that they do have).

I think that if they had more carriages they'd be a lot more appreciated (e.g. the bogs on other trains smell a bit, but other trains have more seats so I don't tend to spend an hour breathing "fumes" whilst stood outside the toilets - you tend to notice these things when crowded onto a Voyager, as I used to be daily when commuting).

There was always going to be the problem with Voyagers that *anything* replacing loco hauled trains on Cross Country services was going to be a bit unpopular in the Enthusiast community (especially with simple clockface service patterns, instead of the esoteric combinations of far flung destinations that happened in BR days), but I think they are okay trains, as long as I can get a seat on one!
 

IamTrainsYT

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The pacers hate seems to stem from the wheelsets causing bounce and squeal. Any other issues with pacers is poor maintenance by the TOC. If northern kept the pacers in perfect condition there would be a lot less hate.
 

AM9

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This thread reads like yet another personal rant about trains that the OP doesn't like. Others clearly have different views.
I've found Voyagers fit for purpose as well a pacers. The fact that soem TOCs misuse them doesn't change the physical entity of the design.
 

Darandio

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This thread reads like yet another personal rant about trains that the OP doesn't like. Others clearly have different views.
I've found Voyagers fit for purpose as well a pacers. The fact that soem TOCs misuse them doesn't change the physical entity of the design.

I cannot really see a rant in the OP, sorry.
 
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I wouldn't want to sit on one all the way from Sheffield to Manchester/ Leeds (which are services that Pacers ran for many years) but I'd be fine with them on a journey to somewhere like Rotherham.

I'd say the same is true for pacers in Wales. My local station is at the end of a Valley line and while I may prefer my regular journey to Cardiff to be a 150, I have no issues with pacers on the line as that's where they're best suited. What I don't like is seeing them on more regional services, for example Cheltenham to Maesteg, but thankfully that's being phased out now.
 

NSEFAN

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Saltwater spray from the sea during bad weather has a habit of upsetting the banks of resistors used for rheostatic braking on Voyagers. Hence during this time XC services to Paignton and Plymouth are often cancelled at Exeter.

On the subject of voyagers, they would be much more tolerable to travel on if they were longer. Daily crush loading commutes on them were not fun, although in the morning I was almost always able to get a seat, which made a big difference.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Apologies if anyone's got the wrong impression - basically I appreciate now what the Pacers and Voyagers do but just saying they're not known for being admired like an HST is.

Obviously high maintenance has played a part in the reliability of both Pacers and Voyagers but the design itself must be fairly simple - the Pacer we all know was a simple build.
 

broadgage

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I agree that the main problem with voyagers is that they are too short.
However the railway industry must think that short DMUs in place of full length HSTs are in fact fine, look at the numbers of new 5 car units ordered for west country routes previously worked by HSTs.
LNER passengers are now enjoying 5 car units in place of proper inter city trains, though they are allowed a buffet.
 

tbtc

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I'd say the same is true for pacers in Wales. My local station is at the end of a Valley line and while I may prefer my regular journey to Cardiff to be a 150, I have no issues with pacers on the line as that's where they're best suited. What I don't like is seeing them on more regional services, for example Cheltenham to Maesteg, but thankfully that's being phased out now.

That's fair.

If a unit is built for branch lines but is then pressed into service on longer distance regional routes then the fact that the unit isn't suited to longer distance regional routes is more of a failure of the TOC than a failure of the units.

BR's original plan to put Pacers on quiet branch lines as a low cost way of trying to keep them open made some sense - often fairly self contained lines too - the fact that they aren't great when coping with longer distance regional routes says a lot more about the failure to provide appropriate trains for such routes - hating a Pacer for being put on a route like Carlisle - Newcastle or trying to keep ahead of the LDHS service breathing down its neck from Newcastle to Morpeth is a failure of the TOC that hasn't got sufficient suitable trains for those diagrams. If the North Eastern 142s were kept on the Whitby and Bishop Auckland lines then they'd be fine.

Same goes with the Valley Lines - a suitable home for a Pacer - but putting one on a Cardiff - Fishguard service would be inappropriate (which isn't to say that it's never happened!).

I remember, in the days before Virgin made the Leeds - Sheffield bit of XC hourly, the gaps were sometimes filled in with Northern Spirit services from Leeds to Sheffield that only stopped at Wakefield Westgate - bouncing along at 75mph was more "thrilling" than anything Alton Towers has to offer - but that's not the fault of the Pacers.

I agree that the main problem with voyagers is that they are too short.
However the railway industry must think that short DMUs in place of full length HSTs are in fact fine, look at the numbers of new 5 car units ordered for west country routes previously worked by HSTs

This dates back to BR days, when they would replace a loco hauled rake with a two coach DMU - the only difference now is that GWR and LNER now have more IET carriages than the HST carriages that have been replaced (so if there's a lack of units then it's not because insufficient units have been built, it's because those units are elsewhere/ failed)
 

ed1971

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Pacers: replaced engines, transmissions, doors, incidents of cardan shafts making a break for freedom with varying degrees of success, as well as one engine. Hardly the most reliable even now, especially the doors.
Voyagers were just a train that created problems that didn't previously exist, but which being 4 or 5 car tend to be able to keep going with certain problems when others wouldn't. Just don't mention Dawlish.

Some of the parts replaced on Pacers were down to obsolescence. The SCG gearboxes were certainly a loss and were quickly replaced. (All 142s-144s had Voith gearboxes by march 1991). The direct acting brake modification was also completed in 1991. The Leyland TL11 engine went out of production in 1991. It is fair to say that it was a lot more reliable in road vehicles than DMUs. However, the newest Pacer was six years old when they started to be replaced. BR had found that it was more economical to replace them with new Cummins LT10Rs than overhaul them. The problems with cardan shafts breaking free was basically due to difficulty in making replacement parts for the SCG final drives as the original information on specifications was not available. The 142 fleet got new Voith final drives in 2014, but the SCG final drives had given nearly 30 years of service by this time.

It was a similar situation with the original London AEC Routemaster bus. Hard to replace worn out AEC engines were replaced by units from Iveco and Cummins in the early 1990s. By the millennium, the SCG gearbox casings became porous. Around 50 Routemasters received Cummins B series engines with an Allison gearbox. It was a sensible way of keeping an older vehicle in service using easy to obtain major components.
 

Chris217

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Ha,I remember Voyagers when they were brand new. Very problematic!
I saw one limping into Stafford on one engine,that finally gave up the ghost in the platform!
The driver getting out of his cab already 70 late swearing what a load of absolute rubbish lol.
They do seem to be pretty reliable now though.
I just dont see them in an enthusiastic way myself tbh.
Too cramped and too short!
Just like toy trains tbh.
They wont have the same following as Pacers though when they go!
 

crablab

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I used to use XC semi-regularly and I remember standing more than I ever sat, on Voyagers. I recently had occasion to use XC again, and yet again I was standing! (granted in an aisle, rather than being fumigated in the vestibule - a rare luxury)

I personally only have bad associations with Voyagers and for reasons that (largely) are not the fault of the vehicle.

However, I don't understand why they still haven't got the toilet smell under control...
 

Islineclear3_1

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The UK's least-liked trains? This is very subjective IMHO. We all have our pet hates and likes but I don't believe there is a single type of train that is disliked by - everyone

I have nothing against pacers but hate the toilet smell of voyagers. The pre-war 4 Subs on the Southern were loved and hated by many but they gave sterling service for over 40 years - and even more when underframes/coaches were reused on EPBs.

Sometimes, the older stock is more reliable... sometimes...
 

Bletchleyite

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The UK's least-liked trains? This is very subjective IMHO. We all have our pet hates and likes but I don't believe there is a single type of train that is disliked by - everyone

I suspect those boarding freezing-cold[1] LNR 319s in the morning would give their eye teeth for a Voyager. (What *are* eye teeth? :) )

[1] Some of the sets have failed heating, but to fix it requires the floor to be lifted, and LNR have such little slack in their fleet that doing that isn't viable.
 

Mikey C

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On short journeys I prefer Pacers to 150s...

At least you get a good view out
 

greatvoyager

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Do you think we'd still be having this conversation if:

A: Pacers didn't exist
B: Voyagers were 8 carriages long and didn't smell of sewage.
Probably, because some people seem to have problems with the interiors of voyagers, as opposed to simply length and smell. Also the problems at Dawlish would still persist.
 
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