ValleyLines142
Established Member
Thank you for that. Seems a bit crazy as that's the first Off Peak train and that can get very well loaded!
What about the 06:14 to Paddington, as that is sometimes a single unit too?
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GWR Intercity Express Train (IEP) initial diagrams & allocations
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Thank you for that. Seems a bit crazy as that's the first Off Peak train and that can get very well loaded!
What about the 06:14 to Paddington, as that is sometimes a single unit too?
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presume you mean from Cardiff as well? If so, on LTP, 1L04 is booked 10 car.
ValleyLines142
Established Member
Yes, sorry, should have specified!
Techniquest
Veteran Member
And the 0614 CDF-PAD was indeed a 10-car on Thursday, 800001+800003.
I was discussing 802s with Kite159 on Thursday and indeed yesterday, given they're my main aim on GWR now. Is it primarily the West Country services that see 802/0s or am I likely to find them elsewhere too? Still need 11 of them!
voyagerdude220
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On Wednesday 5th Feb I travelled on 1H44 15:03 Weston-super-Mare to London Paddington between Bristol Temple M and Bristol Parkway. I think I sat in coach A. It was the very rear carriage of the 5-car train. 800 002. It was practically empty when it arrived and only around 50% full when I was on it. A reasonable volume of people boarded at Parkway as I alighted, but I'd still only say that the train was only about 60% full in coach A. I noticed as we pulled away from the platform and also as we stopped, there was a strange, very loud clunk noise coming from the very rear of the carriage.
I changed onto 1B19 14:48 London Paddington to Swansea, which I travelled on between Bristol Parkway and Cardiff Central. 9-car 800317. This time I was in First Class. I ended up boarding the train around one or two carriages away from First Class and ended up walking through to the very rear carriage of First Class.
Standard Class was mostly full.
Even First Class was particularly busy, although whilst almost all the single seats were taken, alot of the tables for four only had one occupant.
I very happily ended up with two seats together side by side and a little table, so I had plenty of space. Sadly whilst I thoroughly enjoyed First Class, I noticed that the seat was almost as hard against my back in First Class, just like the one I sat on in Standard Class on the previous train. I'd therefore hate to be on one for a substantial length of time. I also wondered if First Class had enough seats. As I left at Cardiff, a huge volume of people were waiting to board the train, including in First Class.
I changed onto 1B19 14:48 London Paddington to Swansea, which I travelled on between Bristol Parkway and Cardiff Central. 9-car 800317. This time I was in First Class. I ended up boarding the train around one or two carriages away from First Class and ended up walking through to the very rear carriage of First Class.
Standard Class was mostly full.
Even First Class was particularly busy, although whilst almost all the single seats were taken, alot of the tables for four only had one occupant.
I very happily ended up with two seats together side by side and a little table, so I had plenty of space. Sadly whilst I thoroughly enjoyed First Class, I noticed that the seat was almost as hard against my back in First Class, just like the one I sat on in Standard Class on the previous train. I'd therefore hate to be on one for a substantial length of time. I also wondered if First Class had enough seats. As I left at Cardiff, a huge volume of people were waiting to board the train, including in First Class.
swt_passenger
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There has never been an intention that they would be “primarily West Country” (or primarily anything to the best of my recollection), especially once all the extra trains were ordered.
There was a post recently in the GW Dec 19 timetable thread listing where the daily diagrams get to, it seems to cover most of the GW network...
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-dec-19-timetable.180888/page-43#post-4420961
Techniquest
Veteran Member
Thanks, I've screen-grabbed that for future reference 
Clarence Yard
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The 802/0 are usually diagrammed on West of England workings. 19 out the 22 are diagrammed SX.
It is the 802/1 sets that are diagrammed all over the GWR network.
It is the 802/1 sets that are diagrammed all over the GWR network.
158747
Member
On the IETs there are small cams set into the door frames, which operate above I would guess approx 5 - 10mph. The purpose of these cams is to push the door a few millimetres into the rubber door seal to make a draught proof seal. The reverse to this happens as the train slows down as the cams release to enable the door to slide open when train arrives at the station. They do sound quite loud when they operate, this was probably what you could hear.
voyagerdude220
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Thank you for the explanation 158747. I guessed it would be something like what you described. I'm aware some trains like 220/221/390 amongst others do similar things, but I was surprised by how noisily the IET functioned compared with other trains.
I'd been appreciating how quiet the train had been up until that point.
Goldfish62
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The 802s were specifically ordered to replace the HSTs that would otherwise have remained on WoE services so I'd say that suggests that that they were primarily meant for those services. I think you'll find that the WoE services are largely in the hands of 802s.
The 802/0s were ordered specifically for that purpose. As has been explained many times on here the 802/1s were ordered for a number of reasons, including WoE but also to cover for some miscalculations in fleet requirement by the DfT, cancelled electrification to Oxford, to release 5-car 80x units for Bedwyn etc.
Also, the original 802 order was for 22 5-cars and 7 9-cars and even then the 9-cars were for a multiplicity of purposes.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-800.100841/page-391#post-4008942
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-800.100841/page-292#post-3664115
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-800.100841/page-67#post-2416801
Goldfish62
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I'm fully aware of that. I was responding to the suggestion that the order for 802s was unrelated to their use on WoE services.
Yes, it looks like that preceding post was at cross purposes as the one before that was related to not now seeing 802/0s around the GWR network. (During the introduction phase it was more common.)
Dai Corner
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So fewer people can get the super cheap tickets and therefore get the previous more expensive train?
Clarence Yard
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Because it should have been a 9 car with the 1015 Bristol "Superfast" 5 car in front of it but when they were removed, it messed up both the Paddington platforming and stock balances, at a very late stage in the timetable process. So it had to be a 5 car, formed off an up Cheltenham, iirc.
There are a few compromises like that with the stock workings but they will all (hopefully) be sorted out in May.
irish_rail
Established Member
Oh joy. The 1104 1204 and 1304 all 5 vice 10 today. Remind we why all these 5 car sets was such a good idea??? Of course In the bad old days of HSTs we would probably of seen a turbo vice HST on say the Cotswold in order to allow a proper length train to run on the wofe service. Progress really doesn't feel so great right now. How much longer are people going to put up with this before they desert the railway?
Which HSTs would that be? You might be lucky to have got one off the Cotswold Line at that time of the day in the good old days, as most of the trains would been 180s or Turbos anyway - and doing so would have stuffed up busy services that needed a "proper-length train" into and out of Paddington later in the day - but then I keep forgetting that it's just commuter-land, where the people aren't special and can just stand anyway...
And the HST would have been a high-density set, with a mini-buffet, so not a lot of use on a service with a Pullman restaurant.
In case you hadn't noticed, things got a bit disrupted by the weather yesterday, with trains not all where they were supposed to be this morning.
So please spare us the unique suffering of the West Country stuff. In the good old days, the formation would probably have been washed out at Cowley Bridge as a result of the weather seen over the past couple of weekends and there would just be a sketchy service running via Yeovil or no trains at all between London and Exeter, never mind Plymouth or Cornwall - whatever the size of the trains available.
The washout at Pontrilas on the Marches Line meant there was no 06.43 from Hereford to Paddington today and the preceding 05.23 left 10 late after the ecs arrived late at Hereford after being sent there via Worcester. The 06.43 from Worcester was also a five-car set this morning.
So just under 1,000 seats missing from the Cotswold Line morning peak service today and no direct service from Worcester to London between 06.43 and 08.13, with the only other option being a two-car Turbo leaving Worcester Foregate Street at 06.53.
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Clarence Yard
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Please give it a rest. There are short forms and cancellations all over the GWR network today, not just on the West of England services, because of the stock displacement following yesterdays closures and the tree hits which has stopped another two sets.
Looking at the disbursement of sets this morning and the stop sheets, today I can truthfully say it would have been much worse if the fleet had all been full length.
irish_rail
Established Member
Take the 1204 for example. It finishes it's day at North pole anyway so I see no reason why the busiest wofe train of the day (in half term as well!!) cannot be formed of a 9 car 800 robbed off a bristol service for example. Someone needs to be a bit creative here.
Clarence Yard
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Creative for whom? There are cancellations and short forms on the Bristol and South Wales services today due to the stock issues. There is a severe shortfall of 9 car sets as well, - 5 on requirement. You are also assuming that there are plenty of 9 cars always available at Paddington to swap at the time 1A76 arrives at Paddington.
I'm afraid the 1204 (only 5 of which finishes at NP) will have to take it's chances today and if NP can get another set out in time, the punters might be lucky and LA may have another set overnight. If they don't, LA will probably be at least one down for tomorrow's run out.
I'm afraid the 1204 (only 5 of which finishes at NP) will have to take it's chances today and if NP can get another set out in time, the punters might be lucky and LA may have another set overnight. If they don't, LA will probably be at least one down for tomorrow's run out.
irish_rail
Established Member
All this leads me to believe we have a serious imbalance of 9 to 5 car sets.
Would be nice if we gave some of our 5s to EMT and some of the new stock they are getting be diverted to the western as 9 cars.
cactustwirly
Established Member
No that doesn't work as they are getting 5 * 23m 80xs!
5 car 802s would be unsuitable anyway, so I don't get the point?
irish_rail
Established Member
The point is EMR are going down the 5 car route rightly or wrongly and so why not have some GWR ones and we get some much needed 9 car sets. However i was unaware EMR where ordering a different spec so wouldn't work anyway.
Maybe Avanti could be an option with GWR ones going to it's sister franchise and GWR get some new build 9 or even 7 car sets.
Clarence Yard
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It doesn't matter what anyone senior in GWR thinks - their views are irrelevant to the Treasury and the DfT. The 5 cars were imposed on them and they just have to deal with it - it's tough on their views but that's how it goes.
Unless and until the DfT deem that the amount of rolling stock for GWR is insufficient for the services they (the DfT) wish to run, the composition of the GWR 800/802 Fleet will remain as it is now.
Playing fantasy rolling stock deployment isn't going to make any difference either. There needs to be demonstrably more passengers overall, 365 days of the year, than seats provided. At the moment there are a lot of empty seats out there.
In the case of Cornwall, the DfT have forked out for a half hourly local service as well as renewing the IC fleet for the West of England. They will need the proof that both sets of services are rammed for more than a few weeks of the year before they will even think of opening the Government wallet.
Unless and until the DfT deem that the amount of rolling stock for GWR is insufficient for the services they (the DfT) wish to run, the composition of the GWR 800/802 Fleet will remain as it is now.
Playing fantasy rolling stock deployment isn't going to make any difference either. There needs to be demonstrably more passengers overall, 365 days of the year, than seats provided. At the moment there are a lot of empty seats out there.
In the case of Cornwall, the DfT have forked out for a half hourly local service as well as renewing the IC fleet for the West of England. They will need the proof that both sets of services are rammed for more than a few weeks of the year before they will even think of opening the Government wallet.
irish_rail
Established Member
And that's the trouble. The Cornish local stuff is carting around fresh air. People for whatever reason are choosing to use the quicker London trains. I'm not convinced the Cornish half hourly should ever of got the go ahead, paticualry as it has had a baring on the west country being lumbered with the 5 car 802s instead 9s. I guess it's all too late now and I'm sure the Cornish stuff will be well used in August.
Goldfish62
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Give it a chance. The half hourly service has only been running since December. It often takes a couple of years to build up usage.
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