• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

M

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,521
Bantamzen said:
Given that HS2 Phase 2b may not be delivered until as late as 2040 after all the consultation & planning for the best part of a decade, it is fairly safe to say NPR will not see the light of day until closer to 2050. So there's probably no value in hanging on any more, just get the job moving and worry about NPR mods in 15 years time, if at all (I remain very sceptical that it will ever happen).
Click to expand...
I take your point but it desperately needs quadrupling, and by the time electrification was complete we would be nearer time to rip it out again (though the “you want to rip out all that nice stuff we paid for” will add to the problem of getting NPR approved).
I would be all for quadrupling, electrifying, and building the bit of HS2 from Thorpe Park to Church Fenton. That would be a transformative Northern package to put in front of Boris and likely to be of use to a future NPR
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

H

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,390
Aictos said:
Indeed, look at Bedford for example that was wired up in the 1980s and is now having the fast lines though the station and northbound plus the slow lines north of the station electrified.



I’m not too familiar with the area so thank you for explaining more.
Click to expand...
TP electrification is very disruptive given network of lines involved which is what made politicans nervous as it will impact plenty of diesel services that will only be under the wires for 5-15 miles. Plenty of local services either side of the peninnes will be disrupted during the works.
 
H

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,390
59CosG95 said:
Wouldn't it therefore make sense to do the western half of the Church Fenton - Colton Jct route alongside Micklefield - Church Fenton, using TTCs on that side of the line only? Then the east side of Church Fenton - Colton, followed by Neville Hill - Micklefield?
Click to expand...
My gut feeling is that after sorting track alignment cross over speeds and signalling (what they are talking about short term) that there is plenty that can be done overnight with pretty minimal disruption given the nature of the line.
 
C

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,995
hwl said:
TP electrification is very disruptive given network of lines involved which is what made politicans nervous as it will impact plenty of diesel services that will only be under the wires for 5-15 miles. Plenty of local services either side of the peninnes will be disrupted during the works.
Click to expand...

There is a counter intuitive political benefit to the disruption. It will advertise that huge investment is being made and why the government has a preference for new lines.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,652
Location
Mold, Clwyd
B Box said:
"It is believed that the government will press ahead with the full £2.9 billion electrification project to underline its commitment to the north.'"
Click to expand...

I have yet to hear/see a convincing statement/report that puts electrification west of Huddersfield back into the plan.
The supposed £2.9 billion project did not include this.
Ministers have not clarified anything about the project in the last week, beyond combining the HS2b and NPR plans into "High Speed North".

The electrification work Colton-Church Fenton will just add 10 miles of electric working to class 802 services, if they switch at Church Fenton rather than at York station.
It's also being done as part of the ECML power upgrade rather than the TP scheme per se.
 
td97

td97

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2017
Messages
1,298
LNW-GW Joint said:
It's also being done as part of the ECML power upgrade rather than the TP scheme per se.
Click to expand...
The work from York - Church Fenton is definitely part of the TRU. The scope is far in excess of a "power upgrade" - see #2421.
LNW-GW Joint said:
I have yet to hear/see a convincing statement/report that puts electrification west of Huddersfield back into the plan.
Click to expand...
"Value engineering" was reportedly undertaken to maximise the amount of electrification included in the £2.9bn price; how successful this has been remains to be seen.
 
S

Spod

Member
Joined
28 May 2016
Messages
62
Location
Leeds
I recall Network Rail offered several options, each balancing electrification costs and benefits with other works for capacity, reliability, speed etc. Does this announcement mean that the government has changed its mind to pick the one with full electrification for more than £2.9 billion, or that they want to cut less headline grabbing elements from the scheme in order to deliver full electrification within a £2.9B budget at the cost of reliability, capacity etc?
 
M

Mollman

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
1,225
B Box said:
As published in The Times on 12 Feb 2020 as part of the HS2 announcement article:

'A series of upgrades of existing lines will also be revealed by the government in the coming weeks, including a commitment to fully electrify the trans- Pennine line from Manchester to Leeds and York. The scheme has been on hold for years, amid speculation that only part of the route would be converted to electric power, with operators relying on “hybrid” trains to navigate the line.

It is believed that the government will press ahead with the full £2.9 billion electrification project to underline its commitment to the north.'
Click to expand...

But interestingly no mention of Selby (or even Gascoigne Wood). At least this way Hull will hopefully get cascaded 802s rather than stuck with 185s and the threat of a shuttle service to Leeds.
 
Senex

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,754
Location
York
Spod said:
I recall Network Rail offered several options, each balancing electrification costs and benefits with other works for capacity, reliability, speed etc. Does this announcement mean that the government has changed its mind to pick the one with full electrification for more than £2.9 billion, or that they want to cut less headline grabbing elements from the scheme in order to deliver full electrification within a £2.9B budget at the cost of reliability, capacity etc?
Click to expand...
If there was a sort of priced menu of what could be delivered, has anyone outside Network Rail and the DfT seen it? If not, why has there not been any debate involving the major local bodies, Transport for the North, local MPs in the areas affected by the scheme (let alone any consultation of railway users)?
 
M

Mollman

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
1,225
61653 HTAFC said:
I assume the user meant from within TPE, if those routes go EMU once the TP core is wired.
Click to expand...

Correct. This is what was originally promised when the Selby - Hull electrification proposal by Hull Trains was rejected.
 
H

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,390
Mollman said:
But interestingly no mention of Selby (or even Gascoigne Wood). At least this way Hull will hopefully get cascaded 802s rather than stuck with 185s and the threat of a shuttle service to Leeds.
Click to expand...
But then every other route would have more diesel running under the wires if 802 were transferred and less running over 100mph in some cases.
The solution will be to get more EMUs when the electrification is completed
 
S

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
957
Location
The North
Mollman said:
But interestingly no mention of Selby (or even Gascoigne Wood). At least this way Hull will hopefully get cascaded 802s rather than stuck with 185s and the threat of a shuttle service to Leeds.
Click to expand...

Where are these cascaded 802's coming from? Certainly not TPE as those are required for 125mph running on the ECML.
 
S

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
957
Location
The North
Glenn1969 said:
Could TPE send bi mode trains to Hull , Middlesbrough, Redcar and Scarborough once the core has been electrified?
Click to expand...

Simply speaking yes. However, TPE once the new rolling stock introduction is complete will have 36 185's, 12 397's, 19 802's and 13 Mk5a's.

802's are required for 125mph running on the ECML, plus need to get to Craigentinny for maintenance along with Doncaster. Taking them off the route's they are planned to serve is pointless. I believe Mk5a's are only designed for 100mph running too, so wouldn't make time on the ECML.

Only way bi-modes would serve said destinations is if more 802's were ordered by TPE. This could be a possibility depending on what happens with the Nottingham - Liverpool decision by the DfT as given increased turnarounds and 6 car running of 185's, there may not be the rolling stock to accommodate 6 car trains on that route. But that is all supposition.
 
Last edited:
gimmea50anyday

gimmea50anyday

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2013
Messages
3,456
Location
Back Cab
Surely the cost of the extension cable from Stalybridge to Vicc, they may as well have strung up the wires anyway...
 
59CosG95

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
6,489
Location
Between Peterborough & Bedlington
SuperNova said:
Simply speaking yes. However, TPE once the new rolling stock introduction is complete will have 36 185's, 12 397's, 19 802's and 13 Mk5a's.

802's are required for 125mph running on the ECML, plus need to get to Craigentinny for maintenance along with Doncaster. Taking them off the route's they are planned to serve is pointless. I believe Mk5a's are only designed for 100mph running too, so wouldn't make time on the ECML.

Only way bi-modes would serve said destinations is if more 802's were ordered by TPE. This could be a possibility depending on what happens with the Nottingham - Liverpool decision by the DfT as given increased turnarounds and 6 car running of 185's, there may not be the rolling stock to accommodate 6 car trains on that route. But that is all supposition.
Click to expand...
I recall that the Mk5a sets are actually capable of 125mph; the 68s are the limiting factor.
While I can't see the Liverpool - Edinburgh services going over to electric loco haulage with Mk5as, the Manc Airport - Newcastle ones might be more of a contender, if a 125mph push-pull capable electric loco fleet was ordered. That would be unlikely though!
 
R

Revaulx

Member
Joined
17 Sep 2019
Messages
487
Location
Saddleworth
gimmea50anyday said:
Surely the cost of the extension cable from Stalybridge to Vicc, they may as well have strung up the wires anyway...
Click to expand...
Good job they didn’t. The original electrification plan was devised when Viccy to Staleyvegas was just a local branch line. Now it’s got most of the Trans Pennines back, so there’s talk of doing a proper job of improving both speed and capacity at Stalybridge, plus easing the squeaking curve at Miles Platting.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,652
Location
Mold, Clwyd
SuperNova said:
Where are these cascaded 802's coming from? Certainly not TPE as those are required for 125mph running on the ECML.
Click to expand...

With the core electrified, I would hope the operator (whoever it is then) would order straight 125mph EMUs for Liverpool/Manchester-Newcastle-Edinburgh and cascade the bi-modes elsewhere.
There are already 397s and Avanti's AT300s to choose from.
There will always be a market for the bi-modes.
 
M

Mollman

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
1,225
LNW-GW Joint said:
With the core electrified, I would hope the operator (whoever it is then) would order straight 125mph EMUs for Liverpool/Manchester-Newcastle-Edinburgh and cascade the bi-modes elsewhere.
There are already 397s and Avanti's AT300s to choose from.
There will always be a market for the bi-modes.
Click to expand...

Exactly, the two routes the 802s currently run on would be 100% electric allowing EMUs to take over. The 802s could then be cascaded to other routes, either direct to Hull on onto a current mk5 route with the loco hauled stock cascaded to Hull services.
 
G

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,266
Location
Greater Manchester
59CosG95 said:
I recall that the Mk5a sets are actually capable of 125mph; the 68s are the limiting factor.
While I can't see the Liverpool - Edinburgh services going over to electric loco haulage with Mk5as, the Manc Airport - Newcastle ones might be more of a contender, if a 125mph push-pull capable electric loco fleet was ordered. That would be unlikely though!
Click to expand...
At the time the TPE new train orders were first announced, it was reported that part of the rationale was that the Mk5A sets could switch to electric haulage once the core was electrified. Then they would be used on the Newcastle/Edinburgh routes with a 125mph loco (e.g. re-geared Class 88). That is why the carriages were specced for 125mph not 100mph.

This would release 802s to work the Scarborough and Middlesbrough routes, where the bimode capability could still be used.
 
Spartacus

Spartacus

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2009
Messages
2,922
LNW-GW Joint said:
With the core electrified, I would hope the operator (whoever it is then) would order straight 125mph EMUs for Liverpool/Manchester-Newcastle-Edinburgh and cascade the bi-modes elsewhere.
There are already 397s and Avanti's AT300s to choose from.
There will always be a market for the bi-modes.
Click to expand...

Though retaining the bi-modes on existing routes would be very useful for when the wires are down or engineering work dictates diverting.
 
59CosG95

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
6,489
Location
Between Peterborough & Bedlington
Worth mentioning that NR are very much planning to use Siemens' SICAT SA design catalogue (recently added into UKMS) as part of TRU electrification. (it's also been used in Scotland on Shields - Gourock, and Haughhead - Larkhall, and more recently on the Stevenage P5 project)
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2019/09/06/sicat-joins-network-rails-uk-master-series/

Banedanmark are using a slightly different version (SICAT SX) on their electrification projects, and more details can be found in this Railengineer article: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2017...alternative-approach-from-siemens-in-denmark/

More SICAT details can be found on the Siemens PDF "Contact Line Systems for Main-line Railways"; the relevant passage is quoted below.
Siemens said:
Specialized for performance
Although the requirements imposed on contact line systems for main-line railways are complex, the answer is simple:
Siemens offers a number of systems to ensure utmost performance on main-line railways:
• Sicat HA – the high-end overhead contact line for the highest speeds up to 350 km/h
• Sicat SA – the economical alternative for high speeds up to 230 km/h
• Sicat HD – the overhead contact line built for DC systems and running speeds up to 230 km/h
• Sicat SD – for the extension and upgrading of existing overhead contact lines for DC railways up to 160 km/h
• Sicat SR – the overhead conductor rail for installation in tunnels and under bridges
• Sicat SX – the cost-efficient electrification solution up to 250 km/h

Sicat HA – for the highest loads
The development of Sicat HA focused on high speeds, reliability and interoperability. So our designers created a contact line system that caters to running speeds over 300 km/h and to a power transmission of 20 MW per train with good traversing characteristics. For the highest speeds, we use a design with optimized stitch wires, spans of up to 70 meters and a tension length of 1,500 meters.

Internationally certified
Sicat HA is certified as a component in general and as a subsystem in specific projects for the trans-European highspeed rail system. This overhead contact line is ideally suited for interoperable railway lines because it allows simultaneous use of the most common and different types of pantograph in Europe. Sicat HA overhead contact lines not only surpass all requirements in respect of temperature range, current-carrying capacity, wind speed and fouling, but are also extremely robust and wear-resistant.

Sicat SA – economical and reliable
We have developed the Sicat SA as a overhead contact line system that is perfectly suited for new and extended highspeed AC railway lines around the world, as well as for all types of upgraded conventional lines and line extensions in the trans-European high-speed system. Thanks to the lower electric loading and technically less demanding power transmission in existing route networks, Sicat SA offers more technical design options for open lines, tunnels and stations for speeds up to 230 km/h. Sicat SA convinces users not only with its low wear but also with its low investment and maintenance costs. It is certified as an interoperability component under TSI Energy.

Sicat SX – for cost-efficient electrifications
Sicat SX is an inclined catenary system for main and secondary lines in main-line railways with outstanding dynamic traversing characteristics up to 250 km/h. The system is characterized by simplified arrangement of overlaps, longer tension sections and greater span lengths and based on proved standard components of Sicat contact line systems from Siemens. Because of low investment costs and maintenance efforts the life-cycle costs of Sicat SX will be favorable for AC railways. Sicat SX has also been certified under the European rail system interoperability directive and the associated Energy TSI as an interoperability component.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top