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Advance Singles permitting routes that are not permitted with ANY flexible ticket for the same flow.

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robbeech

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From the brief points made in this thread i note that Newcastle to Leicester now has only 2 route restrictions on ticketing. A via Sheffield, and a (slightly more expensive) via Peterborough fare.
This seems to prohibit several relatively sensible 'alternative routes' that were historically allowed. There is no financial reason for this, it doesn't undercut intermediate station pricing.
For example, Newcastle - Retford - Worksop - Nottingham - Leicester is a perfectly reasonable route (though likely slower) yet it is no longer allowed as it neither passes through Peterborough or Leeds.
Question 1, i assume this is just another example of 'simplification'?

The main question here is you can buy an advance, XC and connections or LNER and connection or similar and obtain an itinerary to go the route listed above. So with an advance you can be permitted on other routes that neither SVR allows.
Question 2, is it common for advances to permit a route that is not permitted with the equivalent flexible fare(s)?

I'm not talking about promotional or special offer tickets of course.
 
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alistairlees

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I'm sure there are many routes where Advance fares are permitted, but flexible fares are not. Nuneaton to Cambridge is an example - the only flexible fare is routed "Not via London" (effectively via Leicester, Peterborough and Ely). In addition to Advance fares that are valid that way, there is an Advance fare that is "AWC & Connections", meaning it's only valid via London. It's usually about the same price too.
 
Starmill

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Happens all the time. Chester to Norwich, for example (places which, although possibly not among the UK's largest cities, are certainly not small, either).
 
Paul Kelly

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Newcastle to Leicester, I don't think so - it's been that way for a long time, certainly going back to before the "original" fares simplification in 2008. But yes my impression is that it's becoming more common than before as walkup fares have more and more route restrictions added, while just a few years previously quite a few advance purchase fares had route restrictions removed, with TOC restrictions becoming the main thing instead.

Nuneaton to Cambridge via London is a funny one - there is a nice non-overtaken itinerary on Avanti departing at 07:34 each morning - in 1st Class I presume that would get you a cooked breakfast. Yet if you try to book it for tomorrow morning you can't, as Avanti are not selling any advances! I think they've shot themselves in the foot there - presumably they're thinking that passengers will buy the walkup fare instead, but there isn't one!
 
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robbeech

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Indigo2 said:
Newcastle to Leicester, I don't think so - it's been that way for a long time, certainly going back to before the "original" fares simplification in 2008. . .
Click to expand...

That's odd i'm sure i remember an any permitted, perhaps i'm thinking of another similar flow (that may or may not still be the same).
 
kieron

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Indigo2 said:
But yes my impression is that it's becoming more common than before as walkup fares have more and more route restrictions added, while just a few years previously quite a few advance purchase fares had route restrictions removed, with TOC restrictions becoming the main thing instead.
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Route restrictions can both add and remove permitted routes, of course, so I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect there to be a flexible ticket which covers every route an advance ticket can be sold for. For instance, Stockport-Cambridge has "Peterborough & LNER" advance tickets which lets you travel via Huntingdon, but you can't do that with an "+any permitted" ticket, or any other flexible ticket.

Holyhead-Runcorn is a new one. Some "AP TFW only" fares have been created recently (possibly in January), which are only valid via Frodsham and the Halton Curve, but the flexible fares are all "via Crewe" or "via Liverpool", and so not valid on that route.
 
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plugwash

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kieron said:
but you can't do that with an "+any permitted" ticket, or any other flexible ticket.
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This is an especially crazy one, because (as discussed in a thread I started recently) it's not valid on a Stockport to Cambridge ticket, but it is valid on a Manchester to Cambridge ticket, which is the same price.
 
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AY1975

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alistairlees said:
I'm sure there are many routes where Advance fares are permitted, but flexible fares are not. Nuneaton to Cambridge is an example - the only flexible fare is routed "Not via London" (effectively via Leicester, Peterborough and Ely). In addition to Advance fares that are valid that way, there is an Advance fare that is "AWC & Connections", meaning it's only valid via London. It's usually about the same price too.
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brfares.com also mentions Nuneaton-Cambridge Advance fares at £20.30, £25.60 and £32.10 routed via "AP XC EMR & CONS". I presume AP stands for Advance Purchase. Not sure which way you'd go using CrossCountry and East Midlands Railway, though, and I would guess that those fares are rather elusive.

brfares.com also says that with the Advance fares that are set by Avanti West Coast, connecting travel is valid on any train operator so presumably you can go to Cambridge either from King's Cross on Great Northern or from Liverpool Street on Greater Anglia. Avanti's Nuneaton-Cambridge Advance fares also seem to be more elusive, though.
 
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AY1975

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Starmill said:
Happens all the time. Chester to Norwich, for example (places which, although possibly not among the UK's largest cities, are certainly not small, either).
Click to expand...

Yes, looking at brfares.com and the Avanti West Coast website it would appear that AWC does have Advance fares via London but with a walk-on ticket you have to go either via Stockport or via Warrington (including walking from Warrington Bank Quay to Central station) and then on an East Midlands Railway Liverpool-Norwich train.
 
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mmh

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AY1975 said:
Yes, looking at brfares.com and the Avanti West Coast website it would appear that AWC does have Advance fares via London but with a walk-on ticket you have to go either via Stockport or via Warrington (including walking from Warrington Bank Quay to Central station) and then on an East Midlands Railway Liverpool-Norwich train.
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This is very interesting. I wonder if any guard or other ticket checker would ever realise this. Presumably the ticket wouldn't have the cross-London, err, cross which someone eagle eyed might pick up on? Most likely a London Underground checker or at the Liverpool Street barrier?
 
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AY1975

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plugwash said:
This is an especially crazy one, because (as discussed in a thread I started recently) it's not valid on a Stockport to Cambridge ticket, but it is valid on a Manchester to Cambridge ticket, which is the same price.
Click to expand...

For Manchester-Cambridge, brfares.com lists Advance fares via Peterborough & LNER (some via Leeds and Peterborough, some via Doncaster and Stevenage), via Chesterfield & EMR & connections (obviously with EMR to Ely then Greater Anglia), AP XC EMR & connections (not sure which route this one would be) and XC only (presumably via Birmingham, but you can only get these if you specify via Birmingham New Street).

Can you find your original thread on this one and post the link to it, please?

There is a routing point calculator on the Rail Delivery Group site at http://data.atoc.org/rp_calc but I can't get it to work whether I access it on a laptop or on my phone. It asks you to tick the box marked "I'm not a robot", and it then sometimes comes up with a grid of photos and asks you to tick all boxes with cars, traffic lights or trees or something like that, but even when you've done that, the boxes where you have to enter your origin and destination stay red and marked with a cross even after you've entered those details.
 
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Alex365Dash

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Waterloo - Yeovil Junction - Yeovil Pen Mill - Weymouth. Although only two services on just a Saturday (one in each direction) operate*, there is a direct service which follows this route, and as it stops at neither Southampton or Westbury, no flexible tickets are valid on this service.

*being the 06:35 London Waterloo - Weymouth and the 16:54 Weymouth - London Waterloo
 
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plugwash

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Looks like a workaround is to buy a ticket from Elephant and Castle (or presumablly another nearby station on a different route out of london).
 
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