Oyster card for Zone 2-5. Travelling via Zone 1 - where is this explicitly ruled out?

If I want to travel from Forest Hill to East Croydon, the National Rail website will often recommend going up to London Bridge and on to Thameslink as the fastest option. Now, I am 99% sure that if I hold a Zone 2-5 travelcard, I would be committing fare evasion if I touch Zone 1 to change trains. But there's no pink reader at London Bridge to activate the prepay balance on the Oyster card for an extension ticket. Obviously I can walk out of the gates and in again... but:

Where is this spelled out by TfL or National Rail conditions of carriage that I need to do this? Do we think most people understand that it's necessary? What would a ticket inspector's approach be to the countless people who may be accidentally evading via this nuance?

I'm interested to find a specific page or clause spelling this out.

If you hold the Travelcard on Oyster, then as long as you have enough pay as you go credit to cover the zones that your Travelcard doesn't cover, then you are not committing fare evasion. If you pass a pink reader, you must tap it, but if there is no pink reader, you can continue on your journey. Depending on how the TfL single fare finder defines the default journey, you may indeed get to use the extra zones for free. This situation only comes up in a minority of journeys though. See sections 3.17 and 3.19 of Oyster conditions of use on National Rail services

Note that if you were to start or end your journey at London Bridge, you obviously have to touch in/out there and will be charged accordingly.

If you hold the Travelcard on paper, then going via zones not on the travelcard is not permitted.

Fair enough, I was wrong!

maniacmartin said:

If you hold the Travelcard on paper, then going via zones not on the travelcard is not permitted.

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What if you have a paper travelcard AND an Oyster (with PAYG credit), can you just touch "pink" readers and that will charge just the fare for relevant extra zone?

[.n] said:

What if you have a paper travelcard AND an Oyster (with PAYG credit), can you just touch "pink" readers and that will charge just the fare for relevant extra zone?

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Pink readers are designed to indicate route. They are not supposed to start or end journeys, but they will start one if touched when the card is out of the system. There are no pink readers in zone 1.

The only way that the Oyster system can take account of a travelcard is if it is stored on the Oyster card.

I am unsure as to the compulsion to touch a pink reader if you pass one. Certainly you will not get any reduced fare available to people who do touch. There shouldn't ever be a case where touching one mid journey will cause a higher fare to be charged, though sometimes TOCs cock up fares from outside zones. It is certainly possible to get a higher charge if you touch pink just before exiting. Stratford is a prime example of this scenario when you have also touched pink at Hackney or Highbury & Islington. The pink readers at Stratford also cause queues at busy times, so it would be better if those who do not need to touch pink don't try to.

[.n] said:

What if you have a paper travelcard AND an Oyster (with PAYG credit), can you just touch "pink" readers and that will charge just the fare for relevant extra zone?

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To combine any paper ticket and PAYG you need to touch in on a yellow reader. These are available on the platforms at boundary / interchange points such as Amersham or Highbury & Islington (Victoria Line and Moorgate platforms).

PeterC said:

To combine any paper ticket and PAYG you need to touch in on a yellow reader. These are available on the platforms at boundary / interchange points such as Amersham or Highbury & Islington (Victoria Line and Moorgate platforms).

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Although frustratingly, not at Clapham Junction (except for one on Platform 17), meaning that switching from an intercity service covered by a season ticket to London Overground (or other NR service) on pay as you go requires you to exit and enter the ticket gates.

ijmad said:

Although frustratingly, not at Clapham Junction (except for one on Platform 17), meaning that switching from an intercity service covered by a season ticket to London Overground (or other NR service) on pay as you go requires you to exit and enter the ticket gates.

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At least the pink oyster reader at London Overground platform can serve as touch-in reader, so one leg less hassale

hkstudent said:

At least the pink oyster reader at London Overground platform can serve as touch-in reader, so one leg less hassale

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Interesting, I hadn't realised that. I will give this advice to my friend who's walking out/in every day!

Based on the link below, the pink readers are for you to confirm you haven’t travelled via Zone 1, so are eligible for a cheaper single fare where these are available. West Ham to Canonbury is an example of this, and the Single fare finder lists a cheaper alternative fare provided you touch a pink reader at Stratford.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay...o/touch-pink-card-reader-when-changing-trains

The single fares are presumably based on the most likely route(s) to be used between two given stations and priced according to the zones those routes would use, the finder does also state “Some journeys are charged via Zone 1 irrespective of the route taken.”

I’m not sure how this interacts with an Oyster loaded with a travelcard, as the holder of this may intentionally take a longer/less direct route than the “typical” route(s) defined by the single fare finder to remain within their travelcard validity? Equally they could travel through a zone not covered by their travelcard. If there are no pink readers on the route, how does the system know? Will it always assume you’ve remained within the zones covered by your travelcard, unless a tap positively confirms otherwise (such as touching in/out at a zone not covered by your travelcard, in which case it’s obvious an extension needs to be charged).

hkstudent said:

At least the pink oyster reader at London Overground platform can serve as touch-in reader, so one leg less hassale

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Can they? I thought that functionality was removed recently. Perhaps @MikeWh can advise.

CrispyUK said:

I’m not sure how this interacts with an Oyster loaded with a travelcard, as the holder of this may intentionally take a longer/less direct route than the “typical” route(s) defined by the single fare finder to remain within their travelcard validity? Equally they could travel through a zone not covered by their travelcard. If there are no pink readers on the route, how does the system know? Will it always assume you’ve remained within the zones covered by your travelcard, unless a tap positively confirms otherwise (such as touching in/out at a zone not covered by your travelcard, in which case it’s obvious an extension needs to be charged).

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If you have a travelcard then it's always worth checking any occasional journeys to see what's available. My fare finder
has a useful additional detail which is the zones covered by each route. Pink readers are one way of knowing how someone has travelled; another is needing to change between two nearby stations (eg Shepherd's Bush). If a roundabout route isn't defined then you may have to exit and re-enter at the gates of an intermediate station to make it two journeys. There is even an unusal case where a travelcard covering zones 1-2 requires you to touch a pink reader confirming you've stayed within zone 2. Finsbury Park to Hackney Central/Downs defaults to via Seven Sisters (zone 3) so you have to touch pink at Highbury & Islington if going that way.

Hadders said:

Can they? I thought that functionality was removed recently. Perhaps @MikeWh can advise.

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I thought they'd removed it a while back, but it turned out to be a glitch, sadly.

hkstudent said:

At least the pink oyster reader at London Overground platform can serve as touch-in reader, so one leg less hassale

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Clapham Junction is a odd one. If you arrive via west london line on a overground train there is a pink reader, if you arrive on a southern train on other side of station there isn't. However it makes no difference if I touch pink reader on my regular journey to Gatwick. I've also noticed there are yellow oyster validators in tunnel near platform 17, I'm not sure if you can use them to start/end a oyster journey.

bubieyehyeh said:

Clapham Junction is a odd one. If you arrive via west london line on a overground train there is a pink reader, if you arrive on a southern train on other side of station there isn't. However it makes no difference if I touch pink reader on my regular journey to Gatwick. I've also noticed there are yellow oyster validators in tunnel near platform 17, I'm not sure if you can use them to start/end a oyster journey.

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Yes, the yellow reader on platform 17 can be used to start/end an Oyster journey.